Cardassia: Great Power or Minor Power?

[GabeHimself]

Was Cardassia a Great Power or a Minor Power? Could they stand toe-to-toe with the Romulans or Klingons in an all out war? When you watch Sacrifice of Angels, you see a massive number of Cardassian ships -- more so in any one place than you ever saw Romulan ships.

But, the Cardassians were unable to defend themselves from Maquis activity, a Klingon invasion, or the USS Phoenix. So is there an internal logic I'm missing, or was it just writer fiat/CGI artists using too many Galors?

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

The obvious answer is that the Dominion helped them rebuild their military. Cardassians invaded Bajor for resources, IIRC. So they were a lesser power than the Romulans, Klingons or Federation, but a greater military power than say, the Ferengi or some forehead race of the weak...er...week.

Romulans seem to prefer ship size to sheer numbers.

The Phoenix's actions exposed that the Cardassians were rearming at that time. That episode does indicate that a top of the line Starfleet ship is better than average Cardassian vessel.

The Feds had trouble with the Maquis, too, since they are guerillas.

The Klingons took advantage of a weakened Cardassian Union, with the intelligence ops of the Obsidian Order gone and the resources (men and ships) lost. The Order built those ships just for the attack on the Dominion, but we don't know how much material was diverted from elsewhere towards their creation.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Greatest Power.

Actually, I'd say they are on par with the Romulans - a "home" world or two, and a handful of colonies/conquests. Not on par in pure size or numbers with the Klingons or the Federation, but technologically advanced enough to make either of them wince a little at the idea of having to fight 'em. The Dominion, Breen, and Cardassians together were a pretty big bite to chew for the Klingon/Romulan/Federation alliance, but I'd definitely say The Dominion was carrying the biggest share of the burden in their side of the fight.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The pre-Dominion Cardassia was apparently a minor power on its way to greatness. It challenged the Federation with some success--witness the creation of the DMZ and the ceding of several Fed colonies to the Cardies.

The Dominion made them part of a great power, but they learned their place in the end: they were a subject race of the invaders from the GQ, just like the Karemma.

Postwar, they were left a distinctly minor power. Their homeworld was devastated, their fleets were nearly wiped out, and they likely no longer had the infrastructure to properly maintain their interstellar power base. I'd say they were left in a situation not unlike the Klingons in ST6: crippled and reliant on the Federation for help.

In the long run, this is probably a very good thing for them. Look how the Klingons turned out!

 

[Timo]

Probably the decisive difference between minor and major powers isn't simply fleet size or number of possessions, but the degree to which the military and industry can approach the cutting edge. Cardassians were shown as hopelessly backward in military technology in TNG, incapable of challenging Starfleet ships even with major numerical superiority. In that, they joined Talarians and no doubt a great number of other two-bit villain cultures that nevertheless had warred against a fringe of the mighty Federation, and lost.

What it would take to become a Romulan- or Klingon-level threat to the Federation is sufficiently modern weaponry, and sufficiently modern technology to mass-produce it. During DS9, Cardassians finally seemed to be getting there - but nevertheless, their ships still were easy prey to Klingon or UFP counterparts, right until the Dominion came and offered help. It's only around this time that Cardassian capital ship phasers gain in brightness and start to make serious dents in enemy ships...

So I'd say second-rate power all the way, but that's a compliment: most opponents are actually third-rate powers, lacking farther behind in technology and also having markedly smaller possessions. Conversely, there are plenty of "negative-rate powers" that can challenge and defeat the Federation despite not really having much in the way of planetary possessions, as they operate such divinely superior technology - say, the Thasians, Organians, Metrons and so forth.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Photon]

AQ Major Powers:
1) Star Fleet/Federation
2) Klingon Empire
3) Romulan Star Empire

AQ Tweener Powers:
1) Cardassians
2) Tholians
3) Breen
4) Tzenkathi

Minor Powers
Everyone else not in the Federation

Cardassia used cunning, skill, and deception to prolong the war w/the Klingons and Federation.

If SF hadn't had to watch its other neighbors, they could have squashed Cardassia like a bug.

 

[Sci]

Was Cardassia a Great Power or a Minor Power? Could they stand toe-to-toe with the Romulans or Klingons in an all out war? When you watch Sacrifice of Angels, you see a massive number of Cardassian ships -- more so in any one place than you ever saw Romulan ships.

But, the Cardassians were unable to defend themselves from Maquis activity, a Klingon invasion, or the USS Phoenix. So is there an internal logic I'm missing, or was it just writer fiat/CGI artists using too many Galors?

Upstart power that could have become a great power if they had waited a few decades to begin their expansionist policies.

 

[Augustus]

I had always thought of them as on par with the Federation and the Klingons, etc, but reading this thread reminded me of a few things from the days of TNG that I had forgotten.

I would rate them now as a minor power that if the Federation had decided to destroy (pre-dominion) they could have brought the full force of their fleet and won sort of easily.

 

[Marie1]

I had always thought of them as on par with the Federation and the Klingons, etc, but reading this thread reminded me of a few things from the days of TNG that I had forgotten.

I would rate them now as a minor power that if the Federation had decided to destroy (pre-dominion) they could have brought the full force of their fleet and won sort of easily.

This thread explains something I've been thinking about actually. We need Nerys Ghemor in here! But yes, I'd say the earlier post that followed their progress works swimmingly- they invaded a new-ish warp culture for resources, and built up their military. But they took quite a pounding- by the DS9 time, especially during the war with the Klingons. The Dominion supplied them and helped them not only rebuild, but improve their ships. Dominion shipyards operated, according to Romulan intel, at 100% capacity.

 

[TheGodBen]

Judging them by real world powers, the UFP is the US, the Klingons are the Russians and the Romulans are something similar the the Chinese (debatable). In this sort of order I would say that the Cardassians would be like the British; they can maintain control of the Falklands, and you don't want to be at war with them because it would take a large commitment to take them on, but if at war with one of the big three then they wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[Photon]

Probably the decisive difference between minor and major powers isn't simply fleet size or number of possessions, but the degree to which the military and industry can approach the cutting edge. Cardassians were shown as hopelessly backward in military technology in TNG, incapable of challenging Starfleet ships even with major numerical superiority. In that, they joined Talarians and no doubt a great number of other two-bit villain cultures that nevertheless had warred against a fringe of the mighty Federation, and lost.

What it would take to become a Romulan- or Klingon-level threat to the Federation is sufficiently modern weaponry, and sufficiently modern technology to mass-produce it. During DS9, Cardassians finally seemed to be getting there - but nevertheless, their ships still were easy prey to Klingon or UFP counterparts, right until the Dominion came and offered help. It's only around this time that Cardassian capital ship phasers gain in brightness and start to make serious dents in enemy ships...

So I'd say second-rate power all the way, but that's a compliment: most opponents are actually third-rate powers, lacking farther behind in technology and also having markedly smaller possessions. Conversely, there are plenty of "negative-rate powers" that can challenge and defeat the Federation despite not really having much in the way of planetary possessions, as they operate such divinely superior technology - say, the Thasians, Organians, Metrons and so forth.

Timo Saloniemi

Agree.
The Dominion upgrades to Carddy Keldons/Galors were seen in the later battles w/the Big Three and later when they switched sides. Took out Breen and some Dominion ships.

Can't help but think the Klingons held back in the war fearing the Feds just might REALLY get involved.

When the Romulans entered the war, Worf said they struck 12 bases along the border, apprently do alot of damage to the Cardassian fleets in those positions.

I blv that Carddy ship's hulls were the strong points (the one Dukat was one w/the Council took a beating) but offensively they just didn't have it.

I doubt the presence of Keldon class would strike fear in the crews of a Vorcha cruiser, Akira or Galaxy class or the hallowed Romulan Waribird (D'diredex class of course)

 

[Photon]

Judging them by real world powers, the UFP is the US, the Klingons are the Russians and the Romulans are something similar the the Chinese (debatable). In this sort of order I would say that the Cardassians would be like the British; they can maintain control of the Falklands, and you don't want to be at war with them because it would take a large commitment to take them on, but if at war with one of the big three then they wouldn't stand a chance.

Cardassians needed a better MO

Klingons were the Vikings of the AQ. Vicious and made great allies
Romulans (my favorite) were sneaky and were probably more vicious than the Klingons

Cardassians-sneaky (kinda) vicious (kinda) but just needed that ??? to make the a little more memorable

The Dominion, OTH, was all of the AQ powers rolled into one:
**Had SF's technology and trumped it
**Had a nasty streak prolly worse than the Klingons
**More sneaky and conniving than the Romulans

The were Trek's perfect adversary

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Cardassia used cunning, skill, and deception to prolong the war w/the Klingons and Federation.

This is the way I see Cardassia...what they lack in resources and technological might, they make up with strategy. They're not as strong in terms of raw power as powers like the Federation, Romulans, or Klingons, but they are VERY good at maneuvering themselves (and others) to get what they want. (Though of course this backfires on them sometimes.)

 

[Marie1]

Cardassia used cunning, skill, and deception to prolong the war w/the Klingons and Federation.

This is the way I see Cardassia...what they lack in resources and technological might, they make up with strategy. They're not as strong in terms of raw power as powers like the Federation, Romulans, or Klingons, but they are VERY good at maneuvering themselves (and others) to get what they want. (Though of course this backfires on them sometimes.)

True- they're crafty that way, but do they think long term? Their mission to destroy the Founder homeworld for instance, knowing that the Jem'Hadar would retaliate- but could the AQ really take on *all* the Jem'Hadar? And after that, Cardassia allied itself with the Dominion. I'm sure Garak passed along the Founder's "Cardassia is dead" message. Did Dukat really think the Dominion would let them live just for giving them a foothold?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think that against a typical AQ power, the Cardassians' maneuverings were pretty dangerous--enough to at least stretch them enough that any other threat would put them in a lot of trouble. Even if the Cardassians couldn't flat-out destroy you, getting into it with them was still something that made the Federation think twice. Remember how concerned Starfleet was, after the Borg invasion, about tangling with the Cardassians again in "The Wounded"? They seemed to think they couldn't afford that.

The trouble was that Dukat's arrogance caused him to overreach. I'm sure he'd heard threats like that from the Klingons before and blew them off--but made the mistake of treating the Dominion like just another AQ power instead of a superpower too strong for even the Federation to handle alone.

 

[Ezri II]

Though they were a minor power. Did they say they were a great power in ages past. Some reason they never became the power they were. This was the reason they wanted war to gain power.

 

[mythme]

Was Cardassia a Great Power or a Minor Power? Could they stand toe-to-toe with the Romulans or Klingons in an all out war? When you watch Sacrifice of Angels, you see a massive number of Cardassian ships -- more so in any one place than you ever saw Romulan ships.

But, the Cardassians were unable to defend themselves from Maquis activity, a Klingon invasion, or the USS Phoenix. So is there an internal logic I'm missing, or was it just writer fiat/CGI artists using too many Galors?

Upstart power that could have become a great power if they had waited a few decades to begin their expansionist policies.

Exactly. The Cardassians had big aspirations but lacked the resources. The planets they claimed as theirs weren't occupied, but merely annexed by the military until their resources were depleted. This was the military's stop-gap measure for reversing the destitution which had overtaken their homeworld.

 

[Unicron]

Greatest Power.

Actually, I'd say they are on par with the Romulans - a "home" world or two, and a handful of colonies/conquests. Not on par in pure size or numbers with the Klingons or the Federation, but technologically advanced enough to make either of them wince a little at the idea of having to fight 'em. The Dominion, Breen, and Cardassians together were a pretty big bite to chew for the Klingon/Romulan/Federation alliance, but I'd definitely say The Dominion was carrying the biggest share of the burden in their side of the fight.

Agreed.

 

[SonOfMogh]

I look at them a little differently to many people here. Most people see them as kind of "up and coming", wheras I personally see them as has beens.

I'd guess during the TOS timeframe they were probably up there with the Klingons in terms of power and technology, although they probably hadn't made contact with many of the major AQ powers.

I'm thinking at some point during the TOS movies era they lost something... A few subjugated worlds overthrew them, or they lost a powerful ally, or maybe got their asses kicked in a war with another race. Either way they entered the TNG/DS9 period with a hell of a lot of pride, and an attitude that they were every bit as good as the UFP etc, but in reality they were massively short on resources and hadn't upgraded their ship designs for decades. I'd see the Galors an Keldons being a match for Excelsiors and K'Tingas during the TOS Movies, but whilst resource rich races were designing and building new ship classes, the Cardassians were left with these old designs, which they were forced to continue building in numbers to remain competetive.

I'd say they could fight a battle or two with major races as the Klingons and Federation still had a good number of old ships in service. If they picked their battles extremely carefully the Cardassians could still give off the impression they were a force to be reckoned with- especially given the newly built Keldons probably did have a slight edge over Excelsior era ships.

The Cardassians ineffectiveness against new Federation technology is highlighted in the Episode "Defiant", at one point Tom Riker was extremely confident at the prospect of taking on 3 brand new Keldons at once. And demonstrated that this wouldn't have been too much of an issue by disabling a lone Keldon in seconds. It was actually only when the Defiant had 5 Keldons closing on them from one side and 10 Galors from the other that Riker and Kira admitted the Defiant had no hope.

 

[Vanyel]

Cardassia started out as a minor power. It was a highly religious culture that couldn't feed its own people (Chain Of Command Part 2). It was when the military took over that Cardassia started to become a major power.

I would think they had reached the apex of their power when they took over Bajor and during the Federation Cardassian War (The Wounded) and their first Klingon War (Bashir mentions it in The Way of the Warrior).

After that things quickly turned around on the Cardassians. The Bajoran Resistance proved to be a far more formidable foe than they thought and the Federation/Klingon/Romulan weapons technology started to exceed theirs. Cardassia was falling from a first rate power to a second rate one.

The Cardassians seemed to have underestimated the Maquis as well. That seemed to take up a good portion of their military power.

The Cardassians were forced to leave Bajor, they abondoned another station, Empok Nor (I don't recall why). And the Cardassian Union started to collapse on itself.

With the arrival of the Dominion, the Cardassians one remaining major threat, The Obsidian Order, was taken out by a Founder who led them and the Romulan Tal Shiar into a trap. Cardassian Central Command was then overthrown bringing an end to military rule.

Then the Klingon's attacked, over running the outlying colonies and nearly taking Cardassia Prime.

Cardassia was in bad shape. It's over extension into Bajor, war, the Maquis, the infighting between the Obsidian Order and Central Command and the fall of both institutions left Cardassia as a 3rd rate power. In my opionion more occupied planets would have been given or gained independence had Cardassia not joined the Dominion.

Joining the Dominion instantly transformed Cardassia into a 1st rate power.

Now with the Dominion gone and so many Cardassian losses in both population and ships, Cardassia is 3rd rate power again. And it will be for a good while.