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Captain Pike's Wheelchair

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Not only did they have the Enterprise computer downloaded to sift through (in spite of how crude and time consuming it was) they also had two perfectly healthy Human female specimens to observe and measure and (and this is important for repairing the damage to Christopher Pike) Christopher Pike himself! Just cause they don't know how to repair their equipment doesn't meant that none of it works. Why should we doubt that the Talosians couldn't have made automatic recordings of the human specimens as soon as they arrived.

As for Vina's suitability, all they'd really need are her eggs. Assuming her ovaries were more or less undamaged in the crash, I don't see any issue there.

I guess the issue I always had with Vina is that why would it matter if they had never seen an intact human before? Did Vina never own a mirror? I mean these guys are master telepaths so how is it they couldn't reach into Vina's own memories and get some idea of what she was supposed to look like rather than an "everything works perfectly" lump of flesh?



--Alex

I think it's odd to assume that the Talosians can work medical miracles. They've forgotten how to repair the machines left behind by their ancestors. Their principle occupation is basically daydreaming. Their one demonstrated power is to force others to see and feel those daydreams involuntarily.

I don't think they'd be any good at surgery, to say nothing of fantastic body repairs and cosmetic restorations. Nothing in the dialogue suggests they have such abilities.
 
Vina was a baby when her ship crashed, so how useful would her memories be?

Star Trek was actually rated PG-13, so I'm not surprised it could delve a bit into horror. But was it really more horrible than war, disease, death, racism, sexism, etc. they dealt with every week?

Mostly I'm surprise how ineffective the life support chair was. At their current level of tech, I'd expect far more abilities, particularly along the lines of communications. But the story requirements come first, so there must have been a reason why traditional life-support chairs and mental interfaces weren't working for him. Maybe he was allergic to the necessary drug, like Kirk is allergic to Retinax V, and so more primitive, less useful devices were all they had that would work (at the time). This was still a relatively recent accident. Maybe a more advanced chair was still being designed.

Yeah, the spores could probably cure a lot of ailments, but maybe they didn't work all that well, or only did minor things. Pike could have been well beyond their ability to heal. Not that living in spore fantasy is significantly different than Talosian fantasy when it comes to making something real, but Pike didn't have those options, so it was a good plan. Hiring a private citizen or alien to take him there probably would have worked too, but the story - there's always that need for drama, huh.

I do worry the Talosians' abilities to maintain a human body's physical fitness. Aren't they just as likely to die a relatively quick death of a couch potato? Well, if Pike knows how the machines work, so do they, and if maintenance is minor, it could be nuclear powered or something and have a longer life expectation than the user.
 
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Some episodes of Star Trek were unsettling it has to be said, especially to children! For me it was Gary Mitchell's silver eyes and The Salt Vampire's true form. Then the woman without a face from Charlie X and Balok's real appearance was much scarier than his Mr.Hyde! :ouch:
Funny thing is, Clint Howard today looks much the same as he did when he played Balok at age 7 -- complete with those wonky teeth!

Vina was a baby when her ship crashed, so how useful would her memories be?
No, according to the dialogue, Vina was an adult crewman when the ship crashed 18 years earlier, so her real age is probably at least late 30s. Her youthfulness is just part of the illusion.

Star Trek was actually rated PG-13, so I'm not surprised it could delve a bit into horror.
"Rated PG-13?" By whom? The MPAA's rating system didn't exist until November 1968, and it applies to movies -- it has absolutely nothing to do with television. Furthermore, the PG-13 category wasn't created until 1984!
 
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No, according to the dialogue, Vina was an adult crewman when the ship crashed 18 years earlier, so her real age is probably at least late 30s. Her youthfulness is just part of the illusion.

Number One has a line of dialog where she disputes this. She says a review of the ship's manifest shows an adult woman named Vina on board, and after eighteen years, how old is she really?
You're both right. I forgot that - it was their "story" she was born when they crashed - but in reality, she was older. Though if one's tech is sufficiently advanced, I don't think you need the eggs so much as her DNA, and you could manufacture your own random genetic selections. What tech the Talosians have for that, however, is not known. Seems mental manipulation won't cut it, like they might not even be able to harvest eggs.

"Rated PG-13?" By whom? The MPAA's rating system didn't exist until November 1968, and it applies to movies -- it has absolutely nothing to do with television. Furthermore, the PG-13 category wasn't created until 1984!

PG-13 or various ratings are given by organizations other than the MPAA. TV shows and series often have some sort of rating, even if they are retroactively applied. I'm not saying TOS WAS rated PG 13 or whatever in the late 1960's, but I believe it has that rating or the equivalent now, and was rated thus by various systems I've seen. Netflix, for example, has it listed as TV-PG, and the PG essentially means parents should be fine with it if their kid(s) are at least 13 or older, but should use their own judgment for for those who are younger than that. I think their next higher rating is TV 14. Anyway, my point, however badly stated, is I don't think TOS would be a G rated show, IMO, so delving into horror or some more adult issues isn't too unusual, while I get the feeling the BBS board wants to keep discussions or images here pretty much G rated.

But as ratings go, they're pretty subjective and easily ignored, so if you disagree and think TOS is or should be G rated, go for it.
 
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Mostly I'm surprise how ineffective the life support chair was. At their current level of tech, I'd expect far more abilities, particularly along the lines of communications.

Not gonna work if there's the right sort of brain damage. Perhaps unfamiliar to the audiences of the 1960s, but common enough in modern hospital dramas - Pike might have lost the ability to generate language. McCoy would definitely classify this as "mental capabilities intact", as it's more akin to losing a leg or going deaf than to going vegetable. But it would still mean Pike can understand what others say, yet a perfectly working voice processor would merely faithfully reproduce the unarticulated "Yeahyeahyeeeeeeaaaah!" his brain is putting out.

This was still a relatively recent accident. Maybe a more advanced chair was still being designed.

Dunno. If Dr Who can pass the Dalek form as "incredibly advanced" for decades upon decades, we may safely assume the same of Pike's chair, no matter what it looks like. At the very least, it's likely to be a flying chair (we've seen those handheld antigravs Kirk's crew uses - the tech isn't all that bulky or complicated - and besides, Admiral Jameson had a similar chair that demonstrably managed stairs, even if offscreen) and thus sufficient for moving around on Talos IV.

Yeah, the spores could probably cure a lot of ailments, but maybe they didn't work all that well, or only did minor things.

Or did nothing without Berthold rays, and the sum total of spore care and Berthold rays was a painful death as soon as one got weaned from the spores.

That is, Sandoval and his colonists are now all horribly dead, save for the fifteen that were returned to the planet when the doctors realized what was going on and who now live childlike lives free of cares or rational thought (but are projected to die in a further two months anyway). Kirk and his crew are safe because they didn't get too much Berthold, but they are also unhealed because they didn't get sufficient spore. And there's not Goldilocks that would allow Pike to do better than he's currently doing, not for very long at any rate.

Timo Saloniemi
 
And there's no evidence that the Vulcans would not have provided a healer to help Pike, if asked. At this point, they'd been members of the Federation for over a century. The stigma against mind melds had long since been swept away. There'd be no reason for them NOT to help Pike.

Except apparently reason doesn't matter, because the stigma very much remains - even the traitor Spock keeps the ability secret from his superiors and colleagues, and there's no indication anybody else in the Fleet would know better.

Just cause they don't know how to repair their equipment doesn't meant that none of it works. Why should we doubt that the Talosians couldn't have made automatic recordings of the human specimens as soon as they arrived.

Because our heroes doubt it? If Pike did believe the Talosians had the humans' number now, he would take none of the bullshit about Vina needing to stay.

So the Talosians couldn't put her back together right after the crash? Fine. But if they still can't put her back together right, then there's no hope for Pike, either - he comes "pre-crippled", too, after all.

As for Vina's suitability, all they'd really need are her eggs. Assuming her ovaries were more or less undamaged in the crash, I don't see any issue there.

Then why don't they have a slave race already? If Vina's eggs are fine, then so's the sperm from the other corpses, and the Talosians can feast on the useless flesh while their machines churn out human babies.

The sweet zone between needing a working womb and not needing anything more than a strand of DNA is very narrow, at least in Trek. The Talosians appear to sit safely on the conservative-primitive side of that zone.

I guess the issue I always had with Vina is that why would it matter if they had never seen an intact human before? Did Vina never own a mirror? I mean these guys are master telepaths so how is it they couldn't reach into Vina's own memories and get some idea of what she was supposed to look like rather than an "everything works perfectly" lump of flesh?

This objection I could never understand. Do people really think that "seen" in Vina's lament somehow relates to her looks? If the Talosians have never met a human, then them pressing Vina's damaged flesh in the mold of her photograph would simply assuredly kill her. Straightening a spine requires a more profound type of "seeing" than a glance at the exterior.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Vulcans still considered mind melding a private experience. Even if Pike could not easily share what he learned,the healer might not want that deep a meld needed to help Pike.
It is stated not very often that T'Pol and Spock were considered Vulcans by outworlders but not considered "true" by the cast majority of Vulcans.
 
Menagerie: Posters here seem to be saying that a Vulcan mind meld would somehow "heal" or "treat" Pike. How? The mind meld can be used to read a person's thoughts and experiences. That's all. A Vulcan could tell someone what Pike is thinking, or what he wants, but nothing else. I doubt anyone would keep a Vulcan around for that. It may not be an ability known to many at Starfleet either. They didn't know about it in Amok Time.
 
I guess the suggestion there was that "Vulcan Healer" should be Starfleet's standard response to patients in vegetative or otherwise noncommunicative state, regardless of their species. Not for the healing part, but for the Vulcan part - it's just that the most commonly found type of Vulcan in a Starfleet hospital would be Healer.

I doubt this would come true even after Spock confessed to his abilities. Assuming he did confess to them, and didn't ask McCoy (and, later, Kirk) to keep the secret! Nobody could force a Vulcan to assume this job, presumably, and Vulcans volunteering for treating aliens that way sounds extremely unlikely.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Not gonna work if there's the right sort of brain damage. Perhaps unfamiliar to the audiences of the 1960s, but common enough in modern hospital dramas - Pike might have lost the ability to generate language. McCoy would definitely classify this as "mental capabilities intact", as it's more akin to losing a leg or going deaf than to going vegetable. But it would still mean Pike can understand what others say, yet a perfectly working voice processor would merely faithfully reproduce the unarticulated "Yeahyeahyeeeeeeaaaah!" his brain is putting out.
Is this mere speculation or do you know of some specific form of aphasia or whatever where one can understand language, even produce meaningful yes or no signals, and yet other language skills are shut off or destroyed?

Anyway, it would seem to contradict what McCoy said.

MCCOY: Blast medicine anyway. We've learned to tie into every human organ in the body except one. The brain. The brain is what life is all about. Now, that man can think any thought that we can, and love, hope, dream as much as we can, but he can't reach out, and no one can reach in.

Without the ability to form language, can you really think as well as any other man? I do not think they were suggesting greater brain damage – they just underestimated our ability to tie into the brain by then, and the story requirements made the limitation. Of course, it's up to us to find a plausible reason why it might be so, if we can. That's why I was curious what more you could tell me about the specific type of brain injury you might know that can explain all that.

If Dr Who can pass the Dalek form as "incredibly advanced" for decades upon decades, we may safely assume the same of Pike's chair, no matter what it looks like. At the very least, it's likely to be a flying chair (we've seen those handheld antigravs Kirk's crew uses - the tech isn't all that bulky or complicated - and besides, Admiral Jameson had a similar chair that demonstrably managed stairs, even if offscreen) and thus sufficient for moving around on Talos IV.
I didn't mean more advanced locomotion, but a better connection to what was left of his mind. Doubtless with antigravity devices, the thing should be able to effectively fly or at least levitate, but it might be some time before the device could be custom built and delivered. In the meantime, one that merely moves a bit and only can respond yes/no will have to do since its main function is the life support ability. It might be nice to think you can go to the nearest replicator and instantly get any machine you want in under a minute, but even then and there, it might takes months or more. Wouldn't that be a more plausible explanation than a rarer form of brain injury that trashed his outgoing language ability (yet kept yes/no) and his ability to understand or think? If his brain is that bad, maybe even the Talosians won't find his mind useful or interesting, and he'd be nothing but a burden and require a full time staff to keep him healthy.

Do you get the impression Spock had been in contact with the Talosians to help plan this and acquire prior consent? Even that was a serious offense. I wonder when he would have done that. Or did he just assume the Talosians would accept Pike like that?

Or did nothing without Berthold rays, and the sum total of spore care and Berthold rays was a painful death as soon as one got weaned from the spores.

That is, Sandoval and his colonists are now all horribly dead, save for the fifteen that were returned to the planet when the doctors realized what was going on and who now live childlike lives free of cares or rational thought (but are projected to die in a further two months anyway). Kirk and his crew are safe because they didn't get too much Berthold, but they are also unhealed because they didn't get sufficient spore. And there's not Goldilocks that would allow Pike to do better than he's currently doing, not for very long at any rate.
One can make up anything in fiction, but do you think this happened for a reason? I mean, was there some non-canon Trek novel or fan fiction you read that suggested their horrible demise soon after leaving? Since normal exposure of a week or less is acceptable, naturally the Enterprise's crew would be fine regardless.

I make up stuff, too, to explain possible reasons why things happen, or don't happen, in that fictional universe. In this case, IMO, by the time anyone had the idea the place could be used for healing, the spore colony there had died due to lack of hosts. Now only lethal Berthold rays remains, and nobody wants that.
 
Is this mere speculation or do you know of some specific form of aphasia or whatever where one can understand language, even produce meaningful yes or no signals, and yet other language skills are shut off or destroyed?

Severe transcortical motor aphasia, I believe it's called. The thing is, language is incredibly localized, and in a surprisingly simplistic way at that - the anatomical areas involved were identified long ago and have been extensively studied, especially through the study of trauma patients.

Anyway, it would seem to contradict what McCoy said.

Only in the 1960s sense of what he's saying. By modern understanding (post-eighties), McCoy would not be likely to equate aphasia with diminished capability to think, or with personality change or the like. Rather, by modern reading, he's including the aphasia in the list of things keeping Pike locked in his body.

Without the ability to form language, can you really think as well as any other man?

Probably. It's just that you can't tell whether I can.

...it might takes months or more. Wouldn't that be a more plausible explanation than a rarer form of brain injury that trashed his outgoing language ability (yet kept yes/no) and his ability to understand or think? If his brain is that bad, maybe even the Talosians won't find his mind useful or interesting, and he'd be nothing but a burden and require a full time staff to keep him healthy.

Pike's ability to understand doesn't appear in doubt, by any of the parties involved, and indeed this should not relate to his aphasia in any way. Understanding language and producing it are separate functions, apparently (and there's even further separation into native and learned languages etc.).

The thing is, Pike isn't expected to get better. If getting better were a matter of waiting for the right prosthetics, then surely the heroes would just say "Let's wait until he gets better and then we'll talk"?

Factually, Pike has hope - the universe is full of wonders of the right sort. But our heroes know too little to be of help. Yet at least McCoy knows all there's to know about what mankind or the Federation can do for Pike, with therapies or machines, and he sees no hope there.

Do you get the impression Spock had been in contact with the Talosians to help plan this and acquire prior consent? Even that was a serious offense. I wonder when he would have done that. Or did he just assume the Talosians would accept Pike like that?

I trust the Talosians were in full control of the events long before Spock knew there were events there. After all, they demonstrate the required control as the episode proceeds. Spock shouldn't and wouldn't know whether he's in contact with them, as he's controlled by them.

One can make up anything in fiction, but do you think this happened for a reason? I mean, was there some non-canon Trek novel or fan fiction you read that suggested their horrible demise soon after leaving?

Only the episode itself - and the rules by which anything is made up in fiction. The spores would change everything, so since nothing changes, the spores can't work.

The cure being lethal is one way to stop the spores from working. It's one from the pool of "status quo" solutions, which I find preferable to "change" scenarios. Nobody in the episode indicates there should be change involved (say, Kirk deciding to destroy the spores, or McCoy discovering they are dying), and there's no external reason for change (Sandoval's colony or Kirk's eviction thereof only ever touched upon a tiny spot on the planet, the rest should be as it always was).

"Lack of hosts" certainly shouldn't work as a spore-negating element, as the spores we saw were doing fine before Sandoval came and thus should do fine after he left - and those spores would only be a tiny fraction of the total population anyway.

TImo Saloniemi
 
I saw The Menagerie after watching the Cage and it made me appreciate the story even more with the narration during the trial. At least the Prime Universe Pike had a retirement with Vina.
 
Probably. It's just that you can't tell whether I can (think without language).
It's difficult to imagine one could have more abstract concepts, the same as any other man, without the ability to formulate words and use language in your head. I wonder what basis McCoy or others used to determine his mental capacity was undiminished.

The thing is, Pike isn't expected to get better. If getting better were a matter of waiting for the right prosthetics, then surely the heroes would just say "Let's wait until he gets better and then we'll talk"?
One typically does not have the time to sit around and wait. In that case, they sure didn't (assuming there was something they could even wait for). But with (TMoA), he was probably beyond their help since McCoy didn't hold out any hope for improvement, ever (hope of known cures, that is). There's always the possibility of finding another Fabrini, or just a friendlier than normal god-like being.

I trust the Talosians were in full control of the events long before Spock knew there were events there. After all, they demonstrate the required control as the episode proceeds. Spock shouldn't and wouldn't know whether he's in contact with them, as they control him.
The death penalty sure sounds pretty harsh when such beings are capable of that kind of control and from that great a distance. The whole point of no contact is foolish, too, if they can make contact at that distance whenever they wish. And that interpretation would make the extreme loyalty to his old captain and friend sort of pointless. You can't even be sure Pike wants to go - the chair seems to say yes, but that could just be a Taloasin illusion as well as anything else.

Only the episode itself - and the rules by which anything is made up in fiction. The spores would change everything, so since nothing changes, the spores can't work.
Things take a long ass time to change. It would take longer than series, so you wouldn't expect to see it during the show. I wouldn't expect incredible advances due to the encounter with the Cytherian during the run of TNG, but in successive generations, yeah. So nothing of the Omicron spores in TOS, but by TNG, yeah, if they worked and were really all that and a bag of chips.

The cure being lethal is one way to stop the spores from working. It's one from the pool of "status quo" solutions, which I find preferable to "change" scenarios. Nobody in the episode indicates there should be change involved (say, Kirk deciding to destroy the spores, or McCoy discovering they are dying), and there's no external reason for change (Sandoval's colony or Kirk's eviction thereof only ever touched upon a tiny spot on the planet, the rest should be as it always was).
A lethal "cure" is not a good solution, IMO, but I suppose it would work. Taking the colonial members off wasn't a help, but a death sentence for each of them, and a harsh reality and bad memory for the crew and what they helped do.

"Lack of hosts" certainly shouldn't work as a spore-negating element, as the spores we saw were doing fine before Sandoval came and thus should do fine after he left - and those spores would only be a tiny fraction of the total population anyway.
The absence of insects or animals in the colony or on that world suggests the Berthold rays killed them, and the spores weren't interested in them, or the fauna never evolved there. Then again, their livestock seems to have died out. But the plants/spores like humanoids. Why do they seem to strive to infect humanoids at all if they thrive on just Berthold rays?

But you're right, I think, that simply taking the hosts away wouldn't be detrimental enough to kill them – unless they decided to migrate again, as a space capable species, to look for what they really want – both Berthold rays and humanoid or suitable hosts.

As for what they heal, scar tissue or other minor things, these things might be better accomplished by TNG with dermal generators or replacement surgery of grown parts. Now, if as originally written they even returned life to the dead, then that would have been more meaningful and culturally changing. Since none of that seems to have happened, I suspect they can't do too much that modern medicine can't to make it worth the effort of becoming infected, living there for months or years to accumulate the minor benefits, and shaking off the influences before returning to one's normal life.
 
And there's no evidence that the Vulcans would not have provided a healer to help Pike, if asked. At this point, they'd been members of the Federation for over a century. The stigma against mind melds had long since been swept away. There'd be no reason for them NOT to help Pike.
From the mind meld's first appearance in "Dagger of the Mind":

SPOCK [OC]: Enterprise log. First officer Spock, acting captain. I must now use an ancient Vulcan technique to probe into Van Gelder's tortured mind.
MCCOY: Spock, if there's the slightest possibility it might help...
SPOCK: I've never used it on a human, Doctor.
MCCOY: If there's any way we can look into this man's mind to see if what he's seeing is real or delusion...
SPOCK: It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people, part of our private lives.
MCCOY: Now look, Spock, Jim Kirk could be in real trouble. Will it work or not?
SPOCK: It could be dangerous. Do you understand? It requires I make pressure changes in your nerves, your blood vessels.

Sounds like there's still a stigma to me. Mind melds are a "hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people." Like their mating rituals, it's not something they share with offworlders. Heck, Spock referring to it as an "ancient Vulcan technique" implies that it's not something commonly done any more.
 
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