Captain Marvel and the ethics of film criticism.

[Campe]

nothing against black panther and bo-rap but them getting nominations like best picture when first man and mission impossible fallout were denied would have been impossible in 2014 a time where merit not politics mattered at the oscars.

As much as I loved MI:Fallout. No. It was not even close to deserving a Best Pic nomination. First Man's chances were iffy at best, and while a good film, I can see why it did not make the list.

There were other, better films that were ignored in that category. If Beale Street Could Talk comes to mind. Great film.

 

[Mudd]

RT made a splash with their version of the old "thumbs up/down" gimmick, but maybe they ought to think about moving to some sort of rating scale instead. What critics who write review essays do is not binary.

 

[Spot261]

Just for fun, I used an Universal Translator to, well, translate "objective or subjective" in a lot of languages. It's quite interesting that the words are similar even in languages that aren't strict relatives of Europeans languages... (I mean, Javanese?!?!)

Afrikaans: objektief of subjektief
Bosnian: objektivan ili subjektivan
Catalan: objectius o subjectius
Czech: objektivní nebo subjektivní
Welsh: gwrthrychol neu oddrychol
Danish: objektivt eller subjektivt
German: objektiv oder subjektiv
English: objective or subjective
Esperanto: objective or subjective
Spanish: objetivo o subjetivo
Estonian: objektiivne või subjektiivne
Basque: helburu edo subjektiboa
Finnish: objektiivinen tai subjektiivinen
French: objectif ou subjectif
Irish: cuspóir nó suibiachtúil
Galician: obxectiva ou subjetiva
Hmong: objective or subjective
Croatian: objektivna ili subjektivna
Haitian Creole: objektif oswa subjectif
Hungarian: objektív vagy szubjektív
Indonesian: obyektif atau subyektif
Icelandic: hlutlæg eða huglæg
Italian: oggettivo o soggettivo
Javanese: obyektif utawa subyektif
Latin: objective or subjective
Lithuanian: objektyvus ar subjektyvus
Latvian: objektīvu vai subjektīvu
Malagasy: tanjona na subjective
Malay: objektif atau subjektif
Maltese: oġġettiv jew suġġettiv
Dutch: objectief of subjectief
Norwegian: objektiv eller subjektiv
Polish: obiektywny lub subiektywny
Portuguese: objective o soggettivo
Romanian: obiectiv sau subiectiv
Russian: объективный или субъективный
Slovak: objektívne alebo subjektívne
Slovenian: objektivno ali subjektivno
Albanian: objektiv ose subjektiv
Serbian: објективна или субјективна
Sesotho: sepheo kapa se ikhethang
Sundanese: Tujuan atawa subjektif
Swedish: objektivt eller subjektivt
Filipino: layunin o subjective
Zulu: inhloso noma i-subjective

Ok, I'm impressed, I was going to speculate amount the semantics of the word "objective" given it can mean "goal" or "target" but clearly in the context of being paired with subjective it's hard to ignore the pattern.

Did you really just type all of those out? No one can accuse you of being half hearted .

I may well be off base with my theory, it was just speculation based on the odd grammatical structure, misuse (or frequent omission) of capital letters, frequent misspellings and awkward phrasing, as though that of someone who wasn't entirely comfortable using the language.

Seems though that your objektivt research debunks my soggettivo musings.....

 

[Doom Shepherd]

Anybody else find it a bit odd to start off a discussion allegedly about ethics with an instance of unattributed plagiarism?

 

[Dales]

As much as I loved MI:Fallout. No. It was not even close to deserving a Best Pic nomination. First Man's chances were iffy at best, and while a good film, I can see why it did not make the list.

There were other, better films that were ignored in that category. If Beale Street Could Talk comes to mind. Great film.

mission impossible fallout would have been a better contender than black panther if they wanted an action adventure film for a nominee and judge it on merit, first man would have been a nominee for every reason that apollo 13 did in 1996. why did first man chances become iffy? easy. because the Oscars chose to make it about politics and the importance of diversity and not for merit. when the oscars should be about merit first and politics second.


I have not seen if If Beale Street Could Talk but I have seen Widows. a much better film than both bo-rap and black panther.

 

[Spot261]

As much as I loved MI:Fallout. No. It was not even close to deserving a Best Pic nomination. First Man's chances were iffy at best, and while a good film, I can see why it did not make the list.

There were other, better films that were ignored in that category. If Beale Street Could Talk comes to mind. Great film.

I can't imagine a single year in film history where MI:Fallout would warrant a best pic.....

 

[Campe]

mission impossible fallout would have been a better contender than black panther if they wanted an action adventure film for a nominee and judge it on merit, first man would have been a nominee for every reason that apollo 13 did in 1996. why did first man chances become iffy? easy. because the Oscars chose to make it about politics and the importance of diversity and not for merit. when the oscars should be about merit first and politics second.

And as you've said, politics plays a part in this. Again, the voters for the Academy Awards are human. They do not sit there and grade the films they view as part of Oscar season as if they have a rubric to do so. They vote on their emotions, which are, you guessed it: subjective. Because that's what good film does: it elicits an emotional response. Its not only about the technicality of things. And a part of that is political.

As for First Man, it is a good film. The bullshit about not showing the planting of the flag is just that -- bullshit. They show the flag on the surface of the moon. People just like to complain. But it was also, in my opinion, a bit of a cold film. I found Gosling a little wanting as Armstrong. But again, as with all things with this stuff is all subjective.

Personally, I found BlackKklansman a better film than Green Book but guess what won Best Picture?

I have not seen if If Beale Street Could Talk but I have seen Widows. a much better films than both bo-rap and black panther.

Widows was great. And yes, Black Panther was at the bottom of my list. As for Bohemian Rhapsody, I found it quite charming actually. Do I think it deserved a nomination? Yeah, I do. I think, while it was a fairly typical biopic, I think it did a great job of conveying the emotion of Freddie's story. Was it perfect? No. But few films are. Again, it was an emotional story and one that was quite good.

 

[Mudd]

mission impossible fallout would have been a better contender than black panther if they wanted an action adventure film for a nominee and judge it on merit, first man would have been a nominee for every reason that apollo 13 did in 1996. why did first man chances become iffy? easy. because the Oscars chose to make it about politics and the importance of diversity and not for merit. when the oscars should be about merit first and politics second.


I have not seen if If Beale Street Could Talk but I have seen Widows. a much better films than both bo-rap and black panther.

Yeah, you're completely wrong about this.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Anybody else find it a bit odd to start off a discussion allegedly about ethics with an instance of unattributed plagiarism?

What plagiarism? I saw quotes in the OP from other people indicated as such but without specific attribution except that they came from RT. That's not exactly plagiarism, but it's more like improper and incomplete citation. Was there more?

 

[Skipper]

Ok, I'm impressed, I was going to speculate amount the semantics of the word "objective" given it can mean "goal" or "target" but clearly in the context of being paired with subjective it's hard to ignore the pattern.

Did you really just type all of those out? No one can accuse you of being half hearted .

Why, thank you!
I just used this useful site:
https://translatr.varunmalhotra.xyz/

 

[Professor Zoom]

First Man and Mission Impossible simply weren't that good, easy.

Woah woah woah. Mission Impossible not that good!?! Objectively your subjective opinion is wrong.

It’s fantastic.

I don’t think it was nominated because I don’t think Oscars look at action films as pushing art forward. Black Panther being a rare exception.

I think if it had been made decades ago, perhaps it would have.

Rogue Nation and Fallout are perfect thrillers. But not Oscar pics.

And now back to @Dales terrible hot take on objectivity in film criticism

 

[BillJ]

I don't see the big deal here? I just don't. Critics are human beings like everyone else. Some will be great, some won't. Some will share my tastes, others won't.

About the only rule I have about critics, whether professional or amateur, is that I throw out glowing reviews with perfect scores and brutal reviews with the lowest score on the scale. Because there are very few films/TV shows that are perfect or with nothing redeemable about them.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I think the real story is why are men so intent on taking down a movie with a female lead. Why is one movie so threatening?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think the real story is why are men so intent on taking down a movie with a female lead. Why is one movie so threatening?

Apparently Brie Larson herself got uppity.

 

[Skipper]

I don't see the big deal here? I just don't. Critics are human beings like everyone else. Some will be great, some won't. Some will share my tastes, others won't.

Well, there is the critic consensus on some movies. I'm quite sure, for example, that a vast majority of movies critics would say that 2001 or Godfather are "better" (whatever it means) movies than Gigli. So, while movie criticism isn't a science, on the other hand it isn't total random either.

 

[Campe]

I think the real story is why are men so intent on taking down a movie with a female lead. Why is one movie so threatening?

I'm just going to come out and say it: Because people are threatened by the idea of diversity. They're so used to the idea of the man being in charge that one comment opens up a series of YouTube videos and blogs about how white men should be threatened.

• So, people get upset when Kathleen Kennedy wears a t-shirt that says "The Force is female." That just has to mean that Star Wars is a woman's club only, right?
• So, people get upset where the white male captain on Star Trek: Discovery is the bad guy and is taken down by the African American female lead on the show. That just has to mean white genocide, right?
• So, people get upset when Brie Larson suggests that having more representation in film reviews in order to get varying voices of people's opinions? That just means we need to have all out war on anything that isn't comfortable, right?

To me, that just sounds absolutely ridiculous. But its how people feel. I don't understand, but its how people feel. If you are that insecure with who you are that you can't deal with an open playing field and others having representation? Well, the problem isn't the rest of the world. Maybe its the person.

 

[Skipper]

I think the real story is why are men so intent on taking down a movie with a female lead. Why is one movie so threatening?

The wrong female leader. On the other hand, they are perfectly ok with Alita, where the main character is a good example of the problematic Born Sexy Yesterday trope

“Born Sexy Yesterday” characters serve a rather nefarious purpose in sci-fi. They present an image of a woman who is physically mature and capable of contributing to the story in some way — usually they’re skilled in combat, or tech geniuses, or another hobby particularly attractive to a male audience — but who is so naïve, so unwise to the ways of the world that she needs a man to guide and take care of her. Leeloo could annihilate entire energy fields but she couldn’t dry herself off properly without Dallas (Willis) rubbing her down with a towel. Quorra holds the key to a new technological age, has studied under a creator of unparalleled genius, yet she looks at Tron: Legacy's protagonist Sam (Garrett Hedlund) with wide eyes.

The trope is dangerous because it teaches women that to be valued you must be a dichotomy of a person — skilled in some way and yet completely useless in another. It places value on outward appearance and the lack of self-awareness. You must be beautiful but also adorably unaware of your beauty. In turn, it gifts incredibly ordinary, often unremarkable men a questionable kind of confidence. Willis’ taxi driver and Hedlund’s trust fund baby aren’t perfect by any means. In fact, they’re pretty average, even unattractive in certain lights, and yet because the aliens and algorithms they interact with have never encountered men before, they’re suddenly afforded a new status: hero, hunk, savior.

 

[Jayson1]

I think the real story is why are men so intent on taking down a movie with a female lead. Why is one movie so threatening?

I think that is more of a issue in the comment sections and places like Twitter and some of those fan sites you might see on Youtube. Critics on the other hand are suppose to have a opinion on the movie so I don't see that as a agenda so much as them just doing their job. Plus it's basically clickbait that pulls in people from both sides. Some want to check out what is being said because it validates their views and others want to see it because people are kind drawn to the outrage. Kind of like how I would use to watch FoxNews even though I knew it would piss me of. I might be telling myself I just want to see what the "enemy" is up to but really it's just me wanting to feel kind of righteous. I knew what they are going to say and I knew I wouldn't like it, so why I was I watching it? At least that is how I started to feel about it.

Jason

 

[Silvercrest]

What units are used for measuring the quality of a film by the way?

Stars. Or thumbs. These are scientically verivalided units of measure. Any reviewer who uses them is definitated as using the scientic method and his/her reviews are therefore scientially objective.

 

[Neroon]

I am getting the feeling that this discussion has gone around and around more often than the Daytona 500. So how about we shut this down now before it devolves into something lower than "Yes, it is!" "No, it isn't!". There is an existing discussion thread about the actual film "Captain Marvel", where you can talk about film