Captain Jellico: Totally Awesome, or Lame?

[Cyke101]

They spent about four or five seasons worth of DS9 doing it, didn't they? On the other hand, I don't recall hearing anything about how NASA personnel have joined the fight against Al Qaeda.

Heck, forget DS9: how many times has the Enterprise-D been sent to a border as a show of military and political strength on behalf of the Federation? For a non-military vessel, Picard and Co. have been in plenty of standoffs.

 

[Trekker4747]

They spent about four or five seasons worth of DS9 doing it, didn't they? On

Here's a newsflash: DS9 TOOK PLACE DURING A TIME OF WAR.

To quote Picard in insurrection: "Does anyone remember when we used to be explorers?"

Seriously, did you miss the entire point of Trek? I suggest you go back and watch it, with paticular emphasis on TOS and TNG, and then come back and tell me Starfleet is a military organization intent on aggressive, military, exercises and not on exercises bent on exploration and scientific research.

I also suggest you read up on Gene's "vision."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I also suggest you read up on Gene's "vision."

Why did you have to bring the TMP novelization into this discussion?

 

[Peter the Younger]

I tend to agree with Wikipedia on this one:

A military is an organization authorized by its nation to use force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country (or by attacking other countries) by combating actual or perceived threats.

Sure sounds like Starfleet qualifies.

But it's silly to say "it's either A or B." Of course Starfleet does more than defend the Federation, it's a hybrid organization. But it does defend the Federation, you can't just ignore that function like it doesn't exist or is some afterthought.

 

[Admiral2]

They spent about four or five seasons worth of DS9 doing it, didn't they? On

Here's a newsflash: DS9 TOOK PLACE DURING A TIME OF WAR.

During which Starfleet acted like what it is, a military.

To quote Picard in insurrection: "Does anyone remember when we used to be explorers?"

Which just goes to show he was acknowledging what Starfleet is, not what It pretends to be.

Seriously, did you miss the entire point of Trek? I suggest you go back and watch it, with paticular emphasis on TOS and TNG,

I've seen both series all the way through, and there are many instances in both that contradict what you and TPTB would have us believe.

and then come back and tell me Starfleet is a military organization intent on aggressive, military, exercises

No, it concentrates on defensive military exercises, but training to stop someone from invading your home is still a military job.

and not on exercises bent on exploration and scientific research.

They do that too, but they have military ranks and guns, which makes them a military no matter what their job emphasis is.

I also suggest you read up on Gene's "vision."

Gene contradicted himself incessantly through out his involvement with Trek.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Gene contradicted himself incessantly through out his involvement with Trek.

And now we're paying the price....

 

[Cyke101]

As someone earlier said, there's a world of difference between being militaristic and being a military.

 

[tang1230]

I do recall during the original series, Starfleet setting up numerous bases along the Romulan Neutral Zone as shown in "Balance of Terror". Would you have scientists and civilian diplomats lining up against the Korean DMZ? Starfleet was also the primary line of defense when the Klingons had that short war with the Federation in "Errand of Mercy". They also had a vested interest in training in wargames in "the ultimate computer".

With that said I think its clear that Starfleet is not a 'civilian' scientific/diplomatic organization but an umberalla military organization that has diplomatic and scientific wings. Whether it's a full fledge military organization or a hybrid is up for debate. Also the Dominion War wasn't just a one short extraordinary event, Starfleet seems to take the mantle of a regular navy by participating in numerous wars (Tzenkethi and Cardassian Wars along with the forementioned Klingon Wars). So unless its established that the federation has a full fledged military organization to deal with these conflicts, we can say by default that Starfleet to some degree is INDEED an military organization.

 

[apenpaap]

I thought Jellico was annoying, but it worked in that episode.

 

[john titor]

Captain Picard is to Jellico as an enlightened philosopher king is to an authoritarian military dumbass who plays "who wants to press the red button and start a nuclear war."

 

[john titor]

Pity most would want to serve under his command. Q was right after all.

 

[Cyke101]

Pity most would want to serve under his command. Q was right after all.

There's a time and a place for both styles of command, though. Often times, they're not mutually exclusive (Sisko's probably a combination of Jellico and Picard). Frankly, there are about a couple hundred instances throughout Trek that Q could use to damn humanity for fighting, but he doesn't. Funny that.

 

[Trekker4747]

Oy! Could you imagine what would've happened if Jelico ran into Q in E@F?

Humanity would've been fucked.

 

[JB2005]

^ Maybe not, I think Jellico was adaptable. We saw him on a war-footing and we know he was a damned good military leader. When Q was appearing as all kind of soldiers, Jellico might have been better able to discuss how the military was a necessity than Picard's lame "Costumes"

 

[Trekker4747]

Yeah. But Q was looking for proof that humans had evolved beyong being a "savage, child-like, race." I don't think Jelico barking at Q about how the military is needed would've been quite as effective as Picard's approach on how humanity had evolved beyond the need to blow shit up.

 

[Cyke101]

Yeah. But Q was looking for proof that humans had evolved beyong being a "savage, child-like, race." I don't think Jelico barking at Q about how the military is needed would've been quite as effective as Picard's approach on how humanity had evolved beyond the need to blow shit up.

I don't think Jellico is that gung-ho, or at least as gung-ho as some people here believe him to be (alright, he's definitely moreso than Picard). If he were, he would've engaged the Cardassian fleet instead of using various tactics, bluffs, and clandestine methods to force their hand (and we wouldn't have gotten Jellico's excellent dressing down at the hands of Riker, either).

I've been rewatching some early TNG episodes, and Picard strikes me as remarkably similar to Jellico. He's just as strict and intimidating, and it's clear that everyone feels the need to put some distance between them and their captain. He seems more like a disciplinarian than an actual explorer at times.

Of course, when Q did run into someone more militaristic than Picard, Q got socked in the nose

I suppose Jellico could be seen as what if Picard had never loosened up after Locutus.

 

[msbae]

I will agree though that Riker acts like a punk in the bulk of the second episode.

But Riker starts off doing his job right, saying in 10Fwd he was going to talk to Jelico about the Delta Shift, where as Jelico expected people to just instantly adapt to a brand-new duty schedule. If they instantly changed the schedule as Jelico wanted it'd likely mean someone has to cut short the sleep/down time. Not good for morale one bit. Then, as you pointed out, he reassigns engineers to security and chastizes LaForge for not making engineering changes and insists LaForge and the other engieering staff work around the clock to make the changes. Yeah. That's going to go over GREAT for morale and really make the crew trust you, like you, and have your back.

Now, true, once relieved of duty Riker starts acting like a bitch. And smugly "making" Jelico ask for his help was just a pure dick move. But, frankly, Jelico deserved it. Jelico was an ass from the very second he stepped off the transporter pad and treated everyone one as, well, subordinates who weren't deserving of opinions, freedom to do their jobs unsupervised, or whos opinions even mattered. All he had to do was listen to Riker say something like, "The department heads feel that instantly changing the shifts won't be good for morale. But, I assure you we will have the four duty-shift cycle set up by this time tomorrow." But no, Jelico cuts Riker short -infront of a friend and former CO, and in a public area- dresses him down, and then blasts him to Picard after Riker is gone.

"Get it done." Ass.

Thinking back to it, (I think) Jellico had no reason to complain about Riker in Ten Forward. He still had every right to ask Picard how things normally worked there but, only so he'd know what to expect. As the new CO, Jellico can make whatever change he wants.

Still, if I were a Starfleet Admiral, I would put a written reprimand in both Jellico and Riker's files. Riker would get a ball-busting for playing head games with Jellico. Jellico gets one for allowing the situation to get out of his control. He should have sat down with the senior staff from the start and explained that he was going to be much more militaristic than Picard because of the mission's perilous nature.

 

[JB2005]

^but he was the Captain, why should he have to sit down and mollify his crew by saying

"Now listen I'm going to be abit more militaristic than what you might be useful"

At most he should have said "I'm the Captain, deal with it"

 

[john titor]

Yeah. But Q was looking for proof that humans had evolved beyong being a "savage, child-like, race." I don't think Jelico barking at Q about how the military is needed would've been quite as effective as Picard's approach on how humanity had evolved beyond the need to blow shit up.

I don't think Jellico is that gung-ho, or at least as gung-ho as some people here believe him to be (alright, he's definitely moreso than Picard). If he were, he would've engaged the Cardassian fleet instead of using various tactics, bluffs, and clandestine methods to force their hand (and we wouldn't have gotten Jellico's excellent dressing down at the hands of Riker, either).

I've been rewatching some early TNG episodes, and Picard strikes me as remarkably similar to Jellico. He's just as strict and intimidating, and it's clear that everyone feels the need to put some distance between them and their captain. He seems more like a disciplinarian than an actual explorer at times.

Of course, when Q did run into someone more militaristic than Picard, Q got socked in the nose

I suppose Jellico could be seen as what if Picard had never loosened up after Locutus.

Picard was an explorer but he went into disciplinarian mode whenever some dumbass interfered with his plans. Mostly he was calm and collected, in the first season he was probably a bit stressed about commanding a galaxy class starship but after that he relaxed into his role. Anyway Captain Jellicos style of command was not needed in the 24th century, cowboy diplomacy and miltaristic muscle flexing, you see this is why aliens haven't contacted us yet, because we have too many captain jellicos in our societies! If you want excellent combat strategy then Datas style of command would be much more preferable, ie purely logical.

 

[Cyke101]

Yeah. But Q was looking for proof that humans had evolved beyong being a "savage, child-like, race." I don't think Jelico barking at Q about how the military is needed would've been quite as effective as Picard's approach on how humanity had evolved beyond the need to blow shit up.

I don't think Jellico is that gung-ho, or at least as gung-ho as some people here believe him to be (alright, he's definitely moreso than Picard). If he were, he would've engaged the Cardassian fleet instead of using various tactics, bluffs, and clandestine methods to force their hand (and we wouldn't have gotten Jellico's excellent dressing down at the hands of Riker, either).

I've been rewatching some early TNG episodes, and Picard strikes me as remarkably similar to Jellico. He's just as strict and intimidating, and it's clear that everyone feels the need to put some distance between them and their captain. He seems more like a disciplinarian than an actual explorer at times.

Of course, when Q did run into someone more militaristic than Picard, Q got socked in the nose

I suppose Jellico could be seen as what if Picard had never loosened up after Locutus.

Picard was an explorer but he went into disciplinarian mode whenever some dumbass interfered with his plans. Mostly he was calm and collected, in the first season he was probably a bit stressed about commanding a galaxy class starship but after that he relaxed into his role. Anyway Captain Jellicos style of command was not needed in the 24th century, cowboy diplomacy and miltaristic muscle flexing,

But not necessarily covert spy and standoff missions, and I wouldn't get an explorer to do that kind of work. Likewise, I wouldn't send someone like Jellico to a diplomacy mission as well. A balance, a moderation, between peace and defense is something we've consistently seen in Trek, knowing when to talk and when to fight, and in this case it was exemplified with two men who got along and respected each other well enough, but had different styles.

And frankly, in the first few seasons, how many times did we see the Enterprise engage in the sort of mission like Chain of Command? We never did. Yet when the time came to face the Borg or the Romulans, Picard easily adopted a more military mind without flinching.

As well, there's a very good reason why Picard was specifically chosen for such a clandestine mission in the first place, in that Picard's style of leadership, as nuanced as it is, was a good counterpart to Jellico's oversight. After all, Jellico succeeded in his mission and rescued Picard, all without firing a single shot from his end. If his command style is obsolete in the context of Trek's 24th century, then just how did he accomplish that feat? Compare that with nearly every rescue mission we've seen in Trek which involved, surprise, guns blazing, from Kirk to Janeway and Archer.

you see this is why aliens haven't contacted us yet, because we have too many captain jellicos in our societies! If you want excellent combat strategy then Datas style of command would be much more preferable, ie purely logical.

First off, don't you think this whole sweeping generalization in itself is a bit arrogant and unenlightened? It may be a matter of perspective, but to have one human assume that he has the intellectual authority to look down upon the rest of his own people in judgment (to show that one human is closer to an alien perspective than the rest) shows that humanity has a long way to go in overcoming smug superiority. If and when humanity means an alien culture, it will be a collective effort.

And within the context of Trek, the Federation was founded in part as a collective defense and resource pool for the founding worlds. Even since the beginning, military in some form or way was part of the plan. Earth itself was chosen as the center because it was, politically and militarily speaking, neutral to the other three worlds. The other three worlds had been at war with each other in some form or way before Earth came along. Admiral Forrest is closer to Jellico in command style, and he was instrumental in improving human/Vulcan relations.

Additionally, at the time of Chain of Command, Data still had much to learn about command, intuition, and instinct. This is why whenever there was a battle, Picard still chose to put Riker in command, when it's well within his power to appoint Data as battle commander (like how Kirk made Chekov in command once or twice over Scotty).