Captain America: The Winter Soldier pre-release thread

[Alidar Jarok]

I think he's not on the same page. Who is the renegade depends on your point of view.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Looks like Cap's being arrested in that scene.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Arrested by SHIELD people (who may or may not be acting under orders).

 

[Christopher]

I think he's not on the same page. Who is the renegade depends on your point of view.

I'm not so sure. Who's in the right depends on your point of view, but "renegade" means a deserter or traitor -- literally, one who has reneged, who has gone back on one's word. More generally it's used to mean an outlaw or rebel. So if Cap is defending SHIELD against some rogue group within its ranks, then yes, they're the renegades. But if Cap is the one rebelling against SHIELD's own leadership -- which does look like it may be the case -- then he's the renegade, even if he is the one morally in the right. True, he hasn't reneged on his own principles, and he might feel that SHIELD has reneged instead. But if he's violating his oath to follow SHIELD's orders, if he's rebelling against those in lawful authority, then he is technically a renegade.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Arrested by SHIELD people (who may or may not be acting under orders).

That's my take, yes. Cap seems to be going rogue from SHIELD in the film based on his principles.

 

[jbny67]

9 new photos released

http://marvel.com/news/movies/2014/...arrives_in_9_new_captain_america_movie_images

 

[Icemizer]

For as much as I think they missed the boat with the previous Cap outfits they really nailed the look of the blue and white version in these pics. A really great job.

 

[FPAlpha]

I agree. Now if they just would lose the helmet or redesign it somehow it would be a perfect costume.

 

[Samurai8472]

Finally confirmed the WWII suit will return

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Falcon needs some red and white in his costume. The clunky military look does little for me.

 

[Captain Craig]

The Falcon needs some red and white in his costume. The clunky military look does little for me.

The films tend to evolve the characters outfit/costume from introduction to something more aligned to the comic.

I think either by films end he'll have moved to a more "suit" look like we hope or by his next MCU film appearance.

Cap's line to Barton in Avengers just before the final battle as he was recovering was: "You got a suit, suit up then"
Barton wasn't out there in fatigues and cameo so I expect Sam to evolve as well....with a suit, so to speak.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah it wouldn't make much sense for a Shield agent (I'm assuming that's what he is) to be dressed in an urban camo/stars & stripes ensemble. Cap's uniform has a historical reason for looking the way it does and it looks like early on in the film he's distanced himself from that somewhat.

If it were me designing a version of the suit in such a way that it evoked the comic costume without looking so...um...shall we say naff? I'd go with an Arctic camo pattern for the fatigues with red glowy thing on the wingsuit and maybe red tinted goggles. Because everyone knows that glowy things = advanced futuristic tech!

 

[IcecreamLtDan]

In watching the trailers and seeing the pics it seems that there is some sort of rift or disagreement between Cap and SHEILD, I'm wondering if he's just wearing an older version of the suit simply because he lost access to the current one and had to?

 

[Reverend]

^Yeah, his falling out with Shield was fairly explicit in the trailer. And I don't think his using that old uniform instead of the new *darker* Shield outfit is only about not having access to the old one, but more a symbolic statement of the ethical and moral contrast of what Cap stands for and what Shield has come to stand for.

The obvious allegory being the old fashioned American ideals of freedom and liberty vs. the post-9/11 fear induced hysterical obsession with security an any and all costs.

Of course those "old fashioned" ideals actually came with an unfortunate degree of racism, gender discrimination and social inequality...but that's a whole other discussion!

 

[The Old Mixer]

Of course those "old fashioned" ideals actually came with an unfortunate degree of racism, gender discrimination and social inequality

Only if you choose to bring them into the mix...judging by the first film, Cap was never about that.

Cap is about the ideal, not the reality.

 

[Christopher]

Racism and sexism were pervasive in Steve Rogers's time, true, but there were definitely those standing against them even then. In fact, I recently read a compelling article pointing out that Cap was originally written as very much a New Deal Democrat and social progressive:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/10/steven-attewell-steve-rogers-isnt-just-any-hero

Steve Rogers grew up poor in the Great Depression, the son of a single mother who insisted he stayed in school despite the trend of the time (his father died when he was a child; in some versions, his father is a brave WWI veteran, in others an alcoholic, either or both of which would be appropriate given what happened to WWI veterans in the Great Depression) and then orphaned in his late teens when his mother died of TB.[2] And he came of age in New York City at a time when the New Deal was in full swing, Fiorello LaGuardia was mayor, the American Labor Party was a major force in city politics, labor unions were on the move, the Abraham Lincoln Brigade was organizing to fight fascism in Spain in the name of the Popular Front, and a militant anti-racist movement was growing that equated segregation at home with Nazism abroad that will eventually feed into the “Double V” campaign.

Then he became a fine arts student. To be an artist in New York City in the 1930s was to be surrounded by the “Cultural Front.” We’re talking the WPA Arts and Theater Projects, Diego Rivera painting socialist murals in Rockefeller Center, Orson Welles turning Julius Caesar into an anti-fascist play and running an all-black Macbeth and “The Cradle Will Rock,” Paul Robeson was a major star, and so on. You couldn’t really be an artist and have escaped left-wing politics. And if a poor kid like Steve Rogers was going to college as a fine arts student, odds are very good that he was going to the City College of New York at a time when an 80% Jewish student body is organizing student trade unions, anti-fascist rallies, and the “New York Intellectuals” were busily debating Trotskyism vs. Stalinism vs. Norman Thomas Socialism vs. the New Deal in the dining halls and study carrels.

And politics aside, Steve Rogers (as the movie makes clear) is simply a scrupulously fair and good-natured man who doesn't like seeing anyone bullied or mistreated. Having been bullied and helpless himself, he sympathizes more with victims than with the powerful, which, in the movie, is why Dr. Erskine is willing to trust him with the power of the serum. So he wouldn't have been the type to go along with the institutionalized discrimination and injustice of his time.

 

[The Old Mixer]

And in the movies, he put together a (historically unrealistic) multiracial commando squad, and even before that was depicted starring in propaganda films with a multiracial squad.

 

[Christopher]

That unrealistically racially integrated squad was part of the comics too, ever since Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos debuted in 1963.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I'm aware, but even that was 20 years after the time depicted. But the bottom line I that Cap's old-fashioned ideals don't include racism.

 

[DEWLine]

Since you raised the subject of Nick Fury Senior...his upbringing and political life before going to Europe might be some interesting reading in itself.