Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Hermiod, Jun 15, 2009.
^What issue was that?
Thor (v.3) #11.
Aquaman is still due a proper return.
Can you, or someone tell me the names of the trades collecting Brubaker Cap issues #15-24? I can't seem to find them.
I have Winter Soldier vol1&2(issues 1-14) then Death of CA vol1 (issues 25-30) with vol 2-3 coming.
So he literally did die then and went to the afterlife, so they'll have to magically/mystically ressurect him? I think I would have preferred a faked death / body swap bit. I'm not crazy when a non-magical character has a huge life altering magical event happen to him *coughs*One More Day*coughs*
#1 Winter Soldier Part One. #2 Winter Soldier Part Two. #3 Red Menace Part One. #4 Red Menace Part Two. #5 Cap Civil War. #6 Death Cap Part One.
They talk about Hercules being Drunk all the time while fighting super villains, but you know Thor is just as bad. that's not an archaic Scandinavian accent: He's slurring his words.
Back in Avengers Annual 16(ish?) they went to hell and fought a bunch of dead super villains, including Norman Osborn.
These things happen.
besides, what if a person can have more than one soul? or it cautiously ejection in parts in case there is some unforeseen resurrection? Or they can grow a new one if they come back from the dead after flatlining? Stuff.
Well... I keep thinking that Cap's Super Soldier serum would have regenerated the damaged parts of his body. Remember back in the 90s Cap's serum was wearing off and he was dying for a while... the ugh... shudder shudder "RoboCap" time. Now he had the serum basically rebooted then. So its still technically "fresh" in his system, and maybe them throwing him in the ocean in a block of ice was the smartest thing they could do, since it would preserve his tissue and allow the serum to gradually work on the damage.
I think Cap never truly died. Sure he "died" but he didn't completely go away... and heh who knows maybe Heaven knows that Mephisto fucked up the MU and y'know what they don't want Osborn and Mephy screwin' up the MU any more than it is, so they sorta keep Capachino in a "holding" area until he's ready.
Then... Cap busts out of his coffin, takes a couple of days to warm up... fuckin ocean's fuckin freezing doncha know? Then goes and stops RoboSkull and shoves his mechanical arm straight up his ass! Not literally of course.
Then goes and shoves Norman's glider up his ass... literally.
Then, takes the Patriot armor and takes over HAMMER, with Bucky's help whups ass. Takes names. And then takes over the white house booting out the skinny black dude! Hey it could happen.
^Barack's mates with Spider-Man and if Spidey vouches for someone, that's good enough for Cap.
We all knew it would happen but yet i can't feel anything but sadness at the creative level of Marvel (and DC too).
This resurrection shtick was old even when i was a kid over 20 years ago but then as a kid it didn't bother me at all. Now however i'm disappointed because Marvel is just creatively bankrupt.
I know that it is hard to come up with new stories and new characters each year but if you are doing such a major thing as killing of one of your iconic characters think very hard and long about it and then either commit to it or simply don't kill him off.
I'm also sick and tired of the bullshit they spew forth like they know about this return stuff comics are famous for etc and with this death its permanent, finito and he'll never come back only to backpedal some time later and return the character.
With all this in mind the decision was easy last year to stop reading comics altogether.. i can keep track of the stories via Wikipedia if i'm interested enough and the latest developments in the industry (4$ a book??? Seriously?) just reinforces my decision.
To everyone who has still fun enjoy it.. if you can ignore or stave off the cynicism i feel towards the industry good for you. I'm done with them.
Neither DC or marvel have made any pretense that Batman (who isn't even dead to start with) or Captain America would be dead for any period of time.
So anyone going "wow what a surprise" is missing the point, it was planned all along, it was discussed all along - this is coporate owned serial fiction and whining that "people don't stay dead" completely misses the point. If you don't like that, I suggest you get another hobby - It's like complaining that some of the stories in wrestling are "a bit hokey" or that it's staged.
But if you use the same device over and over again it becomes a "bit" stale, don't you think?
One need only remember how many times Jean Grey died to be fed up with this storytelling device and i for one have reached my limit. I have other hobbies and this one is closed for now.. maybe i'll revisit in about 10 years as i did last time.. stopped reading them in my 20s altogether before returning a few years ago.
There's an article in the back of the "Death of Cap" trade where Jim McCann Marvel Sales & Marketing says it's not a stunt Steve Rogers is gone from comics for good.
But what else are you going to do? The aging reactionary comics superhero audience constantly show with their purchases that they are not particular interested in change, they want their comfort blankets.
I thought Civil War was the best selling comics in recent years and that was all about change. Also, Cap #25 where he dies I think I read was the top selling comic issue of that year?
The thing is about that scene, Thor summons Cap's spirit but they don't say from where exactly. Only that it is cold and dark like the bottom of the sea. They also say that his spirit is lingering. Lingering in the cold and dark doesn't sound like something the spirit of Captain America would do naturally.
Also remember, they went to great lengths to show us Steve's dead body. We saw it lose the effects of the super-soldier serum and revert to it's natural scrawny dimensions. They also went to great lengths to keep us up to speed on Red Skull, Dr. Faustus, Arnim Zola, the Grand Director(50's Cap), Crossbones and Sin.
So, how do I think Bru is going to return the original Cap to the land of the living?
First off, when Cap was shot he was hit with a transmitter that was designed to shunt his entire mind into a device similar to what Arnim Zola uses to house his. Only, Cap's doesn't have any arms or legs attached, nor is it connected to any outside computer. So they have him locked away safely with the lights out. This is why Cap's spirit was lingering in the cold and dark, it has been captured.
But his body really died.
So, how do they return him to the land of the living when his body has been dead now for over a year of Marvel time? That is where the Grand Director comes in. The guy running around issue 600 with his own Cap costume and shield. The guy who has idolized Cap so much that he had his features altered to look exactly like him. The guy who took a super soldier serum to try to be like Cap. The guy who has spent the better part of 50 years trying to BE Cap. It will be his body that Cap's friends will transfer his mind into. We will have the real Cap back, and he will look exactly like Cap, but he will be on his second body.
Either that, or the reunion of his essence to his body magically restores it to life and reactivates the super soldier serum in it. Which would be a cop out, IMO. We were promised a death that sticks, even though we all knew he was going to come back. My theory at least gives us a dead body that was Steve Rogers as well as a living one with the soul of the original. And it would provide some reason for Bucky to remain as Cap afterwards as well. As Steve would likely need some time to come to terms he is now living in another man's body, even though it looks like his own. He would likely have to work out the kinks in the real differences in the two bodies that only he would be aware of. And then he would also want to deal with the issue that was brought up before his "death", that he has gotten out of touch with the American spirit. So he would take the time to go out and find it while he lets Bucky carry on holding the shield. Then he comes back for real another year down the road, just in time for his movie to be released.
Might work... afterall how many times has the Red Skull come back in new bodies, same mind and soul, different body. So it might work. Although I keep thinking that his own body could regenerate somehow... (I never read that issue where his body kind of shrivels up) but maybe that's what the SSS needed to do to repair the damage from the gunshot wounds. Essentially it took all the strength from the rest of the body to repair the damage, but when the damage is repaired maybe it'll take a little while for the body to rebulk itself back up.
What could be interesting for a while... have Steve return basically as a fit yet normal guy. Not a skrawny 98lb weakling, but an average build and strength. And see him gradually rebuild himself on his own. He's still got his keen tactical mind, he's still got his spirit, he just can't jump across buildings and kick as much ass as he once could. He's still Steve Rogers. He's still a strong leader. He's still an icon. But he wouldn't be "super" for a while... which means he doesn't have to register as a superhuman, nor would he be treated as such. Not to say he's a pushover, he just has to use his brain and other skills more than his physical ability, which HAS been what Cap was always about.
Actually, what we want is what we used to have: Writers who can write and Artists who can draw.
Hear hear! And draw clearly! I have to admit, I really hate a couple of the artists who did New Avengers, you could barely tell who was who, if it was Tony Stark talking or Dr. Strange. I hate that sketchy faux Dale Keown/Texiera style. Worked for PITT and Wolverine and Ghost Rider back in the 90s... doesn't really work now.
Not when you've got artists like Bagely, Park, Larroca, Chen and Granov at your beck and call. And honestly if they use the same "genius" who wrote that shit Ultimatum to do the return issues of Cap... bah. Marvel can suck my dick. They aren't gettin' a penny of out me!
Bagley doesn't work for them anymore.
Reborn is being written by Ed Brubaker, the same person who's been writing this story from the start.
Separate names with a comma.