Can't pray in school?

[ThankQ]

Let's see what we can do to keep this thread at a level of civility suggest by the rules for this forum.

Been reading and watching a lot of videos regarding the God debate. From the American religious side, there is being a great deal made about the removal of God from public school. Over and over, I read and hear the following points:

"Your children are not allowed to pray in school."

"Your children are not allowed to take or read the Bible to/in school."

Now, this thread is not about the God Debate, but about these particular points. I'm generally one to give the benefit of the doubt, so I would like to chalk this up to a mistake. Short of that, it's tempting to allow that it's simply hyperbole commonly used in argument. In this case, however, upon reflection, it seems there is little doubt to which one can give any benefit. It seems to be a deliberate lie.

Any person can pray, in the US anyway, anywhere, any time he or she pleases. In fact, I know of no possible way in which you can actually prevent a person from praying. Nearly every high school across the country has some type of Christian club which students can freely join or leave. Most of these meet on school grounds before or after class, or during lunch. Millions of students gather on school grounds every year to pray around the flag. There are countless examples.

Oh, and of course you can take a Bible to school. Thousands, if not millions, of students do it every day. I think you'll be hard pressed to find any public school that does not have multiple Bibles in its own library.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

What the people making this claim really mean is that teachers cannot lead prayers in class, and students cannot hold Bible study sessions on school grounds (usually.) This is as it should be.

Students can pray and read the Bible if they want to. The school isn't going to stop them from doing that, unless you're doing something stupid like reading the Bible during math class, or praying out loud while the teacher is speaking.

 

[ThankQ]

^Then shouldn't they say that? "We want mass (no pun intended), public prayer in school." If that's your position, fine, state it, then go about doing what you can to make it happen.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Any person can pray, in the US anyway, anywhere, any time he or she pleases.

Prayer or other religious activities that interfere with the proper execution of one's work duties - including a teacher praying aloud in a classroom - is and should be grounds for punishment and/or dismissal.

BUT - that isn't really about prayer, but a failure to meet job obligations. The same thing could be said about being a vocal, t-shirt wearing Black Sabbath fan that always has their music on.

 

[Brent]

Nearly every high school across the country has some type of Christian club which students can freely join or leave. Most of these meet on school grounds before or after class, or during lunch. Millions of students gather on school grounds every year to pray around the flag. There are countless examples.

They can discourage this though, and they do in some places.

Another question or concern that could be added to this discussion is the wearing of religious paraphernalia on school grounds, such as a "Jesus" T-Shirt, or Jewelry, or the like. Some schools would make you turn that Jesus shirt inside out.

 

[ThankQ]

Nearly every high school across the country has some type of Christian club which students can freely join or leave. Most of these meet on school grounds before or after class, or during lunch. Millions of students gather on school grounds every year to pray around the flag. There are countless examples.

They can discourage this though, and they do in some places.

Another question or concern that could be added to this discussion is the wearing of religious paraphernalia on school grounds, such as a "Jesus" T-Shirt, or Jewelry, or the like. Some schools would make you turn that Jesus shirt inside out.

That's a tough one. We have to balance a few things. First, the student's right of expression (speech), second, the fact that the other students are required by law to be there, meaning, by law, we are forcing them, at the very least, to be exposed to the message on the t-shirt. Third, if we allow the "Jesus shirt", that could potentially lead to the ol' slippery slope; what else could students claim they have the right to wear on their t-shirts?

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

As long as there's pop quizzes in schools, kids will be skipping class.

Wait...

There are no atheists in the teacher's lounge.

Or was it...

If you're living like there's no god, then you are probably a high school student.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Nearly every high school across the country has some type of Christian club which students can freely join or leave. Most of these meet on school grounds before or after class, or during lunch. Millions of students gather on school grounds every year to pray around the flag. There are countless examples.

They can discourage this though, and they do in some places.

Another question or concern that could be added to this discussion is the wearing of religious paraphernalia on school grounds, such as a "Jesus" T-Shirt, or Jewelry, or the like. Some schools would make you turn that Jesus shirt inside out.

Where are you getting this information?

 

[Mark de Vries]

Third, if we allow the "Jesus shirt", that could potentially lead to the ol' slippery slope; what else could students claim they have the right to wear on their t-shirts?

The other way around: what else could schools claim they have the right to ban from schools? If a shirt with some religious message on it is illegal, what else could follow? Shirts with band names that could bother people who don't like that music? Shirts in a colour that someone might not like?

It is a slippery slope, indeed.

The expression of faith is for many a natural consequence of that faith. I wear a small cross around my neck as a sign of my faith. I realise that the majority of the people I meet will not share my faith. Should they be allowed to tell me not to wear it, because they can't identify with it? If they can't identify with it, isn't it just a piece for wood for them?

Similarly, isn't a Bible for someone who does not believe just a book? Or a prayer just a poetic expression of language? Should books and language be banned from school? Where does that end?

 

[ThankQ]

The expression of faith is for many a natural consequence of that faith. I wear a small cross around my neck as a sign of my faith. I realise that the majority of the people I meet will not share my faith. Should they be allowed to tell me not to wear it, because they can't identify with it? If they can't identify with it, isn't it just a piece for wood for them?

The people you meet at the places you freely choose to go and they freely choose to go, I assume you mean.

Children do not freely choose to go to school. They are a captive audience required by law to be there. By saying "You must be here", we're also saying that you must be exposed to whatever is there. So, I am then required by law to be exposed to the Jesus shirt you have the right to wear.... ?? Something has to give. The student does not have the freedom to say, "I do not wish to be exposed to the Jesus message" and then leave school. The people you meet in your daily life have the freedom to move away from you if they don't like your cross. The students don't have the choice to escape it. You are forcing a student to endure the religious message of another student.

See the difference?

 

[Mark de Vries]

I do see the difference, but I don't think it is as important as it is often made out to be.

These children are at school to learn. Some of the things they'll learn are things they like, others they won't. Children do not have the right to decide what they want to see, read, hear and learn in school. That right lies with their parents and the school itself. Now, if the parents see an enormous problem in a depiction of Christ, they are free to send their kids to another school.

But I maintain that simply seeing the word 'Jesus' or a cross or any other religious symbol is not damaging. So what if they don't like it? Learn to live with it. You're going to have to learn to live with a lot of things you won't like.

A school has the right and duty to do what they believe is good for their pupils. If they decide that includes prayer, then so be it.

 

[Jan]

Chances are, the t-shirt is a non-issue since the school would have a dress code. Somebody upthread mentioned student's freedom of speech. I think it's been established in court, at least when it comes to student newspapers and the like, that students don't have a right to free speech.

Regardless, the people claiming that children 'aren't allowed' to pray or bring the Bible to school are in error, either deliberately or through ignorance. The school and its representatives (assuming public school here) are not allowed to promote religious activity. What a student chooses to do or bring that's not disruptive is generally up to the student.

Jan

 

[StarryEyed]

A school has the right and duty to do what they believe is good for their pupils. If they decide that includes prayer, then so be it.

Wrong answer! The school has absolutely no right to impose prayer or display religious symbols any kind. Individual students may pray and IMO should be allowed to wear religious symbols but the school - like any government entity - must remain neutral.

I suspect some schools may ban religious symbols and slogans on clothing to prevent clashes between students but I don't know if it would pass constitutional muster if it were challenged.

 

[RoJoHen]

A school has the right and duty to do what they believe is good for their pupils. If they decide that includes prayer, then so be it.

Private schools, maybe. Certainly not public schools.

 

[ThankQ]

But I maintain that simply seeing the word 'Jesus' or a cross or any other religious symbol is not damaging. So what if they don't like it? Learn to live with it. You're going to have to learn to live with a lot of things you won't like.

I maintain that seeing the word "Fuck" or any other swear is not damiging. So what if some people don't like it? Learn to live with it....

I maintain that seeing "Kikes are worthless"....
I maintain that seeing "Don't trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and lives" is not damaging.

 

[Galactus]

Guess it depends on where you live. Some schools are church on the weekends.

Not all schools allow different religious groups to form, because they would have to have a faulty sponsor.

Schools in the US are stupid anyway, so what else is new.

 

[Colonel Green]

Odd that the nations whose schools outperform those of the US are invariably less religious...

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

I suspect some schools may ban religious symbols and slogans on clothing to prevent clashes between students

Not a bad idea

it might prevent the spread of this kinda stuff

 

[John Picard]

Odd that the nations whose schools outperform those of the US are invariably less religious...

HEATHENS!

 

[Shaytan]

A school has the right and duty to do what they believe is good for their pupils. If they decide that includes prayer, then so be it.

But not with public money. Public money is for everyone, and public schools must be for everyone. They are here to give an academic education, not a spiritual education so they should remain religiously neutral. A school is not a place of prayer.

Of course, considering my cultural background,my answer was predictable