Canon or Canonical Cycle?

[Warped9]

And aside from the fact they shouldn't be able to cloak pre-Romulan-War, the Romulan ships (along with the NX-01) looked like they were designed for post-TNG time period.

They were a slight modification of "Bird of Prey" seen in Balance of Terror which made them look less like a Starfleet vessel and more alien. ( a short coming of the design used in BOT.


The NX has quite a few "Connie" style easter eggs all over it. The Nacelles alone (accounting for about 50% of the design) have a very pre TOS look to them.

Not in my book. The ENT BoP's look like something from the TMP era rather than as a pre TOS design. And the ENT doesn't at all look pre TOS.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Authors of fiction outside of sci fi can write novels set during real-world time periods while maintaining historical accuracy. Someone writing a historical novel about how people coped living thru the Battle of Britain may invent fictional characters, but wouldn't dream of substituting F-16s for Spitfires, or showing satellite video teleconferencing between Churchill and Hitler.

Real history can be researched, and doesn't contradict itself. It's also worthy of respect because it's, you know, true.

Trek canon contradicts itself. Trek is a fantasy which exists to entertain.

There is no depth nor detail to the fictional continuity that fans call "Trek history" any more than there is some futuristic metal or steel beneath the grey paint on the plywood walls of the Enterprise; it's all superficial and provisional. Maintaining fidelity to a hodge-podge continuity that was made up on the fly, treating it as inviolable no matter how it limits storytelling in the here-and-now, is simply not a worthy standard to aspire to or to evaluate a story by. It's trivial.

 

[Forbin]

^Hmmm. Interesting excuse, coming from a writer.

Trek has an internal history that can be researched and adhered to as well, and, IMHO, is worthy of its own respect.

 

[Forbin]

And aside from the fact they shouldn't be able to cloak pre-Romulan-War, the Romulan ships (along with the NX-01) looked like they were designed for post-TNG time period.

They were a slight modification of "Bird of Prey" seen in Balance of Terror which made them look less like a Starfleet vessel and more alien. ( a short coming of the design used in BOT.


The NX has quite a few "Connie" style easter eggs all over it. The Nacelles alone (accounting for about 50% of the design) have a very pre TOS look to them.

Not in my book. The ENT BoP's look like something from the TMP era rather than as a pre TOS design. And the ENT doesn't at all look pre TOS.

Yup. The heavily-bepanelled BoP takes cues from the TNG-era Klingon ship and Jem'Hadar ships, and the greeblie-festooned NX is, as we all know, a very, very slight modification of the Akira from First Contact with its engine pylons flipped.

 

[RandyS]

Every Star Trek story that ever existed is canon. Doesn't matter where it originated.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

Both, of course. There's no contradiction: Lazenby even referred on screen to "that other guy", the previous Bond. Clearly, in the realm of those stories, multiple people use the alias "James Bond", just like multiple people can be "The M" or "Felix Leiter"...

Actually that's not correct at all, it's just a fanwank made up by 007 diehards who insist that there be some sort of Bond "canon" when nothing of the sort exists. The line in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" was just a fourth-wall-breaking wink to the audience to acknowledge the change in the lead actor (the first time that happened in the film series). There was never any suggestion that James Bond was an alias taken by multiple agents over the years, neither in Fleming's novels or anywhere in the film series.

The Broccolis made it very clear on many occasions that each film is considered a standalone Bond adventure and there is very little attempt to maintain continuity between films. While they occasionally make a reference to a past Bond event (like when Roger Moore visited the grave of Bond's dead wife) in general each film exists within its own continuity.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

^Hmmm. Interesting excuse, coming from a writer.

I don't need excuses to do what I think best. "Excuses" are what the fanboisie make up for the myriad internal inconsistencies and contradictions of Trek continuity so that they can allege that it represents a history of some kind.

Actually that's not correct at all, it's just a fanwank made up by 007 diehards who insist that there be some sort of Bond "canon" when nothing of the sort exists. The line in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" was just a fourth-wall-breaking wink to the audience to acknowledge the change in the lead actor (the first time that happened in the film series).

Exactly. The Bond producers used to assume that their audience was reasonably sophisticated and accepted the series as the slightly tongue-in-cheek fantasy that it had quickly become.

About the only Bond film that approached being a realistically plausible spy thriller was probably "From Russia With Love."

 

[Nerys Myk]

And aside from the fact they shouldn't be able to cloak pre-Romulan-War, the Romulan ships (along with the NX-01) looked like they were designed for post-TNG time period.

They were a slight modification of "Bird of Prey" seen in Balance of Terror which made them look less like a Starfleet vessel and more alien. ( a short coming of the design used in BOT.


The NX has quite a few "Connie" style easter eggs all over it. The Nacelles alone (accounting for about 50% of the design) have a very pre TOS look to them.

Not in my book. The ENT BoP's look like something from the TMP era rather than as a pre TOS design. And the ENT doesn't at all look pre TOS.

It has the same basic horseshoe with wings look, plus the funky dorsal fin. Not really seeing anything TMP in the design.

Since we've never really seen any pre-TOS ships till ENT, who can say what that looks like.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I can look through pages here on the TBBS as well as designs in Masao's Starfleet Museum site and see many designs superior and more credible to what they did in ENT.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^^ I can look through pages here on the TBBS as well as designs in Masao's Starfleet Museum site and see many designs superior and more credible to what they did in ENT.

I'm sure you can. But to my eye a lot of those ship are pretty fugly. I've never understood where the bulbous bumblebee/fish look came from and why that would connect with Star Trek's design aesthetics
.

The Romulan ships lack the elegance that Romulan vessels (starting with the BOP)seem to share. They are clunky and unimaginative to my eyes. Something thats common to many fan designs

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I've looked; there aren't.

 

[milo bloom]

I'm still mildly disappointed we didn't get to see this bad boy:


RomulanEarlyPre-WarpVessel04 by mithmaster, on Flickr

But seriously, while I acknowledge that the producers of ENT did do quite a bit to make sure the Romulan issue was handled fairly well, I wouldn't have minded a few more jellybean style panels on the NX-01's bridge and maybe a something a little less "Akira" looking for the overall design. I mean, I can reconcile it in my mind by saying that the 24th century designers of the Akira found something usable about the NX's shape that helped them resolve an engineering issue, but on the other side of the fourth wall, it's hard for me to get past the idea that TPTB just grabbed the design because they thought it looked neat.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That actually originally appeared in one of the Okudas' reference books - the Star Trek Chronology, I think. Unless mithmaster is someone like Greg Jein, the attribution is probably mistaken.

 

[milo bloom]

That actually originally appeared in one of the Okudas' reference books - the Star Trek Chronology, I think. Unless mithmaster is someone like Greg Jein, the attribution is probably mistaken.

The mithmaster is my yahoo email account which I use for Flickr. That's how Flickr makes you cite your photos now.

I just recalled seeing it at some point in the past (prob. the Chronology) and went googling for it. I put it into my Flickr account so the hotlinking naz-- I mean delightful mods wouldn't say anything about hotlinking.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I'm still mildly disappointed we didn't get to see this bad boy:


RomulanEarlyPre-WarpVessel04 by mithmaster, on Flickr

But seriously, while I acknowledge that the producers of ENT did do quite a bit to make sure the Romulan issue was handled fairly well, I wouldn't have minded a few more jellybean style panels on the NX-01's bridge and maybe a something a little less "Akira" looking for the overall design. I mean, I can reconcile it in my mind by saying that the 24th century designers of the Akira found something usable about the NX's shape that helped them resolve an engineering issue, but on the other side of the fourth wall, it's hard for me to get past the idea that TPTB just grabbed the design because they thought it looked neat.

The thing is that looks like an attempt to do something that looks like it's pre-TOS by doing something that is therefore designed to look pre-1966.
ENT got it right that even though it's taking place 100 years before Kirk's time it's also still 150 years after today.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I also think even the writers of the TOS episodes would n't really care one bit if new stuff contradicts their stuff.

Imagine the telephone conversation:

Old Trek Writer Guy:Hello?
New Trek Writer:Hi there...I was wondering if I could bother you a moment?
OTW:Sure, what can I do for you?
NTW:Yeah, I'm writing a new Trek story and I'm sorry but there's a little thing you included in the script you wrote for episode X that makes it really difficult for me to finish my script in time for the deadline.
OTW:I'm sorry I don't quite understand what you need me to do.
NTW: I mean how do I get around that you wrote ______ in that episode???
OTW:(slowly realizing just what New Trek Writer means) Oh shit kid just forget that crap! Holy smokes I did that 40 years ago between writing for Galaxy magazine and an episode of Twilight Zone! Just go ahead and do what you need to do!
NTW:Really? It's OK?
OTW:Hell yeah! Make lightning bolts come out of Spock's ass if you like!
NTW:Thanks so much!
OTW:Good luck kid! Bye!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The mithmaster is my yahoo email account which I use for Flickr. That's how Flickr makes you cite your photos now.

Really? I never cite my in-line photos at all. What's Flickr's beef?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Imagine the telephone conversation:

ELLISON: Hello?

New Trek Writer: Hi there...I was wondering if I could bother you a moment?

ELLISON: Yeah, make it quick. I really need a good bowel movement about now.

NTW: Uh...I'm writing a new Trek story and I'm sorry but there's a little thing you included in the script you wrote for episode X that makes it really difficult for me to finish my script in time for the deadline.

ELLISON: Jezuz God how do you yuckamucks find me.

NTW: I mean how do I get around that you wrote ______ in that episode???

ELLISON: First, I did not write that, Roddenberry inserted it with all the finesse of some impotent john trying to shtup a schoolgirl hooking for lunch money. Second, despite the fact that you're reasonably articulate and apparently capable of dialing a telephone with your little webbed fingers you're clearly some kind of mutant microencephaloid. Star Trek is a fucking TV show, you clown. Fer Chrissakes, it's a kiddie western.

NTW: Uh - what? Look, I -

ELLISON: Listen to me: I Do Not Care. If you were a real writer I'd urge you to free yourself of this baggage, get out of the goddamned guano factory and dream your own dreams...but to put it in language a forelock-tugging yokel like yourself might understand Make Something The Fuck Up.

NTW: Yeah, thanks...

ELLISON: Yeah, you can thank me by drinking a can of Drano and thus sparing humanity another hour of televised pabulum - but if you use anything from my script I'll sue your ass off.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Why, it's like you've MET the man, Dennis!

 

[Valin]

Dennis, that was great!