Can you activate a tractor beam when cloaked?
- Thread starter Vulcan
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GodThingFormerly
A Different Kind of Asshole
I think you posted this thread in the wrong forum.
TGT
I'm tempted to say no, because we've seen that the cloak draws a lot of power to maintain the field. Shields and weapons both go down while the ship is cloaked. Even if you could power the tractors, it probably wouldn't be a popular use because it would give away your position.
I agree with Unicron. Aside from any technical issues, cloaking is all about keeping a low profile, while slapping a tractor beam on someone or something is one of the more "Hi, how are ya?" type activities in the trekverse. Don't see much of a market for doing both at the same time.
The reason I ask is because I was thinking about my police ship idea. Some trekart veterans might remember this guy:
http://www.fourmadmen.com/gallery/albums/images/10005/normal_25-8.JPG
I was thinking that in order for it to capture a ship, it would have little cloaked shuttle craft that would fly out of the shuttlebay and fly to the ship being detained and they would all put a tractor beam on it. They'd then use their impulse engines (which, from I remember manipulate the mass of the ship), in the opposite way, i.e. making the mass of their shuttles something like 10-20 times more than the normal mass.
This is just an idea though. I'm sure it's full of holes.
http://www.fourmadmen.com/gallery/albums/images/10005/normal_25-8.JPG
I was thinking that in order for it to capture a ship, it would have little cloaked shuttle craft that would fly out of the shuttlebay and fly to the ship being detained and they would all put a tractor beam on it. They'd then use their impulse engines (which, from I remember manipulate the mass of the ship), in the opposite way, i.e. making the mass of their shuttles something like 10-20 times more than the normal mass.
This is just an idea though. I'm sure it's full of holes.
Yes, but what is the point of stealth if you can be found due to the tractor beam. The large power requirements for cloaking are also a detrement.
Seeing as how my favourite operating principles for tractor beams and cloaking devices both involve tachyons, this seems as good a place as any to peddle some of my shabby little theories.
I like to think of tractor beams as using the reverse chronometric properties of FTL tachyons to put a little temporal backspin on gravitons- sort of a retrograde cousin to the deflector beam, which seems to have preceeded it by a few decades at least. I assume some technical issue in achieving the required interaction between the tachyons and gravitons caused tractor development to lag behind deflector dishes.
Using a subspace field as an omnidirectional tachyon projector, using tachyonic echos that supersede visible light waves across the field, would make a pretty good cloaking device, and might also explain a vulnerability to “tachyon grid” detection methods by the TNG era. The main drive seems to be involved, judging by where Scotty rigged up the cloaking device Kirk boosted from the romulans in TOS: Enterprise Incident. I like to think that the “new shields” that held up against V'ger a few years later in ST:TMP were based in part on this tech, being the first warp-amplified, continuous, TNG style field bubble which raised the previous, close-in, individual field blisters up and off the hull.This would allow federation ships to be no more than a “Treaty of Algeron” related shield control software adjustment away from cloaking ability from this point on.
As to whether tractor beams and cloaks could work concurrently - the appropriate "tuning" would probably allow such, but as stated in previous posts, you'd still have a limited number of viable applications of the capability.
I like to think of tractor beams as using the reverse chronometric properties of FTL tachyons to put a little temporal backspin on gravitons- sort of a retrograde cousin to the deflector beam, which seems to have preceeded it by a few decades at least. I assume some technical issue in achieving the required interaction between the tachyons and gravitons caused tractor development to lag behind deflector dishes.
Using a subspace field as an omnidirectional tachyon projector, using tachyonic echos that supersede visible light waves across the field, would make a pretty good cloaking device, and might also explain a vulnerability to “tachyon grid” detection methods by the TNG era. The main drive seems to be involved, judging by where Scotty rigged up the cloaking device Kirk boosted from the romulans in TOS: Enterprise Incident. I like to think that the “new shields” that held up against V'ger a few years later in ST:TMP were based in part on this tech, being the first warp-amplified, continuous, TNG style field bubble which raised the previous, close-in, individual field blisters up and off the hull.This would allow federation ships to be no more than a “Treaty of Algeron” related shield control software adjustment away from cloaking ability from this point on.
As to whether tractor beams and cloaks could work concurrently - the appropriate "tuning" would probably allow such, but as stated in previous posts, you'd still have a limited number of viable applications of the capability.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Shinzons ship was more than capable of firing a barrage of disrupters through the Scimitars cloak, not only that but his ship was also able to raise its primary and secondary shielding whilst cloaked and not only this!! even when his ship was firing the Enterprise and Romulan Warbirds couldnt locate his ship and relied on luck to fire on the Scimitar.
But lets not forget the most important part of the film, the part when Picard and Data were escaping the Scimitar in the Scorpian class ship, the Scimitar was cloaked and was still able to fire its tractor beam to try and get picard.
In other words if your ship has the right kinda cloaking device then yes, you can use a tractor beam through the cloak and still remain undetected!
But lets not forget the most important part of the film, the part when Picard and Data were escaping the Scimitar in the Scorpian class ship, the Scimitar was cloaked and was still able to fire its tractor beam to try and get picard.
In other words if your ship has the right kinda cloaking device then yes, you can use a tractor beam through the cloak and still remain undetected!
Isn't that a one of a kind example?
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Thats why I said:
However, we can argue for a more general ability to use devices while cloaked.
Have we? I'd argue we have seen the exact opposite: the power-starved BoP in ST4:TVH had little problem maintaining her cloak, and more of a problem maintaining her transporters. Also, whenever we see an actual cloaking device, it's a tiny portable unit that can be hooked up to random low-grade power systems such as the Cardassian "shuttle" in "Profit and Loss", and can even cloak itself without being hooked up to anything.
The "cloaks require lots of power" statement is just a theory that Spock throws in the air in "Balance of Terror". We have never seen any solid evidence that Spock would have been right in his wild guess.
Only if the cloaking software tells them to. Romulans seem to prefer this setup, probably for the extra degree of stealth it offers. Klingon ships have been shown to deflect disruptor hits even after cloaking, as in "Redemption", and can keep their weapons hot under cloak and sometimes fire them without bothering with the seconds-long decloaking routine.
Indeed. The same with firing your weapons - unless you can make a quick getaway after firing your volley. This was probably easier back in Kirk's days, where the E-A could not target Chang's BoP quickly enough even though the enemy ship regularly revealed her location by firing. TNG era fire control systems might be faster, explaining why Chang's fighting style has gone out of fashion.
There's little point in using tractor beams for hit-and-run, of course. Unless the ship doing the capturing was a juggernaut capable of reeling in her prey in a matter of seconds and then escaping the wrath of the prey's sisters. And indeed the ability to do things while permanently cloaked might best be incorporated in a big and powerful supership, which would have more difficulty in the "pop-up" style of cloak warfare than the nimble BoPs. (Just witness how Picard is able to hit the clumsy Scimitar repeatedly after scoring one "ranging hit", and Shinzon has great difficulty shaking his nemesis off once thus exposed.)
Timo Saloniemi
Have we? I'd argue we have seen the exact opposite: the power-starved BoP in ST4:TVH had little problem maintaining her cloak, and more of a problem maintaining her transporters. Also, whenever we see an actual cloaking device, it's a tiny portable unit that can be hooked up to random low-grade power systems such as the Cardassian "shuttle" in "Profit and Loss", and can even cloak itself without being hooked up to anything.
The "cloaks require lots of power" statement is just a theory that Spock throws in the air in "Balance of Terror". We have never seen any solid evidence that Spock would have been right in his wild guess.
Only if the cloaking software tells them to. Romulans seem to prefer this setup, probably for the extra degree of stealth it offers. Klingon ships have been shown to deflect disruptor hits even after cloaking, as in "Redemption", and can keep their weapons hot under cloak and sometimes fire them without bothering with the seconds-long decloaking routine.
Indeed. The same with firing your weapons - unless you can make a quick getaway after firing your volley. This was probably easier back in Kirk's days, where the E-A could not target Chang's BoP quickly enough even though the enemy ship regularly revealed her location by firing. TNG era fire control systems might be faster, explaining why Chang's fighting style has gone out of fashion.
There's little point in using tractor beams for hit-and-run, of course. Unless the ship doing the capturing was a juggernaut capable of reeling in her prey in a matter of seconds and then escaping the wrath of the prey's sisters. And indeed the ability to do things while permanently cloaked might best be incorporated in a big and powerful supership, which would have more difficulty in the "pop-up" style of cloak warfare than the nimble BoPs. (Just witness how Picard is able to hit the clumsy Scimitar repeatedly after scoring one "ranging hit", and Shinzon has great difficulty shaking his nemesis off once thus exposed.)
Timo Saloniemi
While the cloaking effects haven't always been used consistently in different eps, it's been pretty well established that the cloak is power-intensive. That's why it's not a more dangerous weapon in the hands of the Romulans or the Klingons. The device in BOT can be considered a different cloak anyway, since it's clearly a prototype and doesn't have some of the characteristics of those used regularly.
When did the Klingons ever fire without decloaking, aside from TUC?
When did the Klingons ever fire without decloaking, aside from TUC?
What evidence is there for the cloak being power-intensive? Apart from Spock's theory, I mean?
No, I don't think any Klingon ship has fired when cloaking or decloaking, let alone while cloaked, apart from Chang's special vessel. Nor any Romulan vessel, for that matter, apart from the Scimitar. Firing of energy weapons seems to be incompatible with cloaking - or then powering up of energy weapons is counterproductive while under cloak, making the invisible ship shine like a beacon on the enemy sensors, which is why the weapons are only powered up at the moment of decloaking and not before.
Timo Saloniemi
No, I don't think any Klingon ship has fired when cloaking or decloaking, let alone while cloaked, apart from Chang's special vessel. Nor any Romulan vessel, for that matter, apart from the Scimitar. Firing of energy weapons seems to be incompatible with cloaking - or then powering up of energy weapons is counterproductive while under cloak, making the invisible ship shine like a beacon on the enemy sensors, which is why the weapons are only powered up at the moment of decloaking and not before.
Timo Saloniemi
Didn't Chang's vessel momentarily uncloak to fire?
The weapons are definitely an issue; I'd have to see if there is any specific dialogue about not using them while cloaked, but my understanding has been that it simply isn't feasible. Cloaking a ship requires a significant amount of power, and even more to do it on a continuous level. I do recall it being said in BOT that the Romulan ship had to decloak to fire the plasma weapon, and Spock says that the energy cost of cloaking is enormous. Again that could simply be a prototype issue, but they've used that idea ever since.
The only dialogue I can recall ATM regarding shields is in Generations, where the BOP used by the Duras sisters is forced to cloak and thus loses its shields. Chang's vessel didn't seem to have its shields up either while cloaked, as demonstrated by the fact that the seeker torpedo inflicted so much damage on it. "The Enterprise Incident" stated that the cloaks of that era had to be tied into the ship's shield system, which is why you couldn't use shields with the cloak.
But it's pretty much as you said - using the two systems simultaneously, with rare exceptions like the Dakronh and the Scimitar, doesn't seem compatible. The Scimitar's perfect cloak was only a plot device anyway.
Even without the power consumption issue, we've seen in several eps ("Tin Man," "Face of the Enemy") that the system's energy allocation has to be monitored very carefully to completely conceal the ship; if this balance is upset, the ship can be detected as an echo. Both these instances are on warbirds as well, which presumably have some of the best cloaks in the galaxy.
The only dialogue I can recall ATM regarding shields is in Generations, where the BOP used by the Duras sisters is forced to cloak and thus loses its shields. Chang's vessel didn't seem to have its shields up either while cloaked, as demonstrated by the fact that the seeker torpedo inflicted so much damage on it. "The Enterprise Incident" stated that the cloaks of that era had to be tied into the ship's shield system, which is why you couldn't use shields with the cloak.
But it's pretty much as you said - using the two systems simultaneously, with rare exceptions like the Dakronh and the Scimitar, doesn't seem compatible. The Scimitar's perfect cloak was only a plot device anyway.
Even without the power consumption issue, we've seen in several eps ("Tin Man," "Face of the Enemy") that the system's energy allocation has to be monitored very carefully to completely conceal the ship; if this balance is upset, the ship can be detected as an echo. Both these instances are on warbirds as well, which presumably have some of the best cloaks in the galaxy.
