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Can we ever realistically get to the 23rd or 24th Century?

Chrisisall

Chrisisall

Commodore
Commodore
Tests show that humans tend towards tribal mentality, even in these so-called modern times. Braves or Celtics? Whatever. I can't conjure an alliance with Star Wars fans over Trek fans. Or Karate dudes over Kung-Fu peeps.
As long as we define ourselves by what we AREN'T, we live in the world of Tyree & his peeps, controlled by outer forces giving us the weapon of divisiveness of the moment.
Can we ever evolve beyond that? Or are Picard's words just SF nonsense?
 
Chrisisall said:
Tests show that humans tend towards tribal mentality, even in these so-called modern times. Braves or Celtics? Whatever. I can't conjure an alliance with Star Wars fans over Trek fans. Or Karate dudes over Kung-Fu peeps.
As long as we define ourselves by what we AREN'T, we live in the world of Tyree & his peeps, controlled by outer forces giving us the weapon of divisiveness of the moment.
Can we ever evolve beyond that? Or are Picard's words just SF nonsense?
Click to expand...

Pride, opinions, preferences, and competition will always be ultimately helpful. We've already seen this sort of proclaimed "tribalism" and factioning in Trek: how many captains (including Picard, Janeway, and Sisko) boast that they have the finest crew in Starfleet? Why do some go for the Sciences track while others do Operations and still others Command? Science vessel or scout? They're divisive choices but still good for us.
 
I believe we will, eventually, evolve beyond the need of group identification, religiously dictated inhibitions and the need for wealth, but will take us some time to get there. We'll have to get capitalistic greed and organized religion out of the picture, first.
 
DiSiLLUSiON said:
I believe we will, eventually, evolve beyond the need of group identification, religiously dictated inhibitions and the need for wealth, but will take us some time to get there. We'll have to get capitalistic greed and organized religion out of the picture, first.
Click to expand...
We're closer than you think. We'll be the Borg any time now.
 
What a great question.

How i wish we could, i'd love to see it in my lifetime. But its doubtful. We would need something monumental to make all humans realize that we are alike despite our differences. Seriously, like what happened in First Contact. I can only see it happening if something like that ever happened.
 
USS_Triumphant said:
DiSiLLUSiON said:
I believe we will, eventually, evolve beyond the need of group identification, religiously dictated inhibitions and the need for wealth, but will take us some time to get there. We'll have to get capitalistic greed and organized religion out of the picture, first.
Click to expand...
We're closer than you think. We'll be the Borg any time now.
Click to expand...

The Borg are more religiously dictated then anything else in the Star Trek universe, with their "we need to attain perfection; we are not good enough" creed.
 
DiSiLLUSiON said:
The Borg are more religiously dictated then anything else in the Star Trek universe, with their "we need to attain perfection; we are not good enough" creed.
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That is very insightful, at least in relation to mainstream Christianity (of which I was a practitioner and pastor). Note that many religions do not see a fundamental breakdown in relations between humanity and God or the gods. But whatever -- still a neat thought for me to read here on a BBS on a Weds. morning.

As for attaining the 23rd century. At least some of humanity is putting aside tribalism somewhat, even though they might still root for the local high school sports team. (That is probably healthier than actually going to war with the town 13 miles away, as in St. Francis' day.) A number of white and Hispanic Americans voted for a black President. A number of people opposed war in Iraq, sensing tribalism at its root more than pragmatism (reducing violence). Animal rights activists extend "us" to other species. Women are treated by law (and by at least some men in practice) as equals! That is a new development at least since "civilization" got going.

The spiral dynamics model of successive worldviews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics) has been very helpful to me to see that worldviews have been and are still evolving to be more inclusive.

The army and the actual coach portrayed in the film, "Remember the Titans" found that putting people into situations where they have to work together to overcome a common enemy does much to overcome specific tribalisms. Granted it is actually taking it up one level, expanding the "us" vs. a bigger them. Humanity seems to see itself as one big "us" at least racially. But we had common enemies between now and the 23rd century to bring us together. In the 23rd century it is Federation races that are not all one "us" (witness "Journey to Babel").

So could we get to the racial harmony on the Enterprise, I think it's possible. A big alien attack like in Independence Day would help! But tribalism is so bred into our primate programming. Read Goodall et al.; our closest relatives go to war too -- but with sticks. I have a hard time seeing us getting rid of it. Can we harness it and control it? Or will tribalism (a survival strategy in earlier times) destroy the race and even life on earth before we can get to the 23rd century?

I don't know. Carl Jung's favorite aphorism was, "You can throw nature out with a pitchfork, but she always comes back with a vengeance."
 
USS_Triumphant said:
DiSiLLUSiON said:
I believe we will, eventually, evolve beyond the need of group identification, religiously dictated inhibitions and the need for wealth, but will take us some time to get there. We'll have to get capitalistic greed and organized religion out of the picture, first.
Click to expand...
We're closer than you think. We'll be the Borg any time now.
Click to expand...

Yep. People will be pining for the good old days when humanity wasn't just a bland vanilla blob. Ever notice how Star Trek essentially ignores human culture in favor of vibrant alien cultures which have all the bad old stuff like nationalism, species-ism, religion, hostility, imperialism, greed, etc that humanity has given up? The Star Trek philosophy just makes you boring. :rommie:
 
Temis the Vorta said:
USS_Triumphant said:
DiSiLLUSiON said:
I believe we will, eventually, evolve beyond the need of group identification, religiously dictated inhibitions and the need for wealth, but will take us some time to get there. We'll have to get capitalistic greed and organized religion out of the picture, first.
Click to expand...
We're closer than you think. We'll be the Borg any time now.
Click to expand...

Yep. People will be pining for the good old days when humanity wasn't just a bland vanilla blob. Ever notice how Star Trek essentially ignores human culture in favor of vibrant alien cultures which have all the bad old stuff like nationalism, species-ism, religion, hostility, imperialism, greed, etc that humanity has given up? The Star Trek philosophy just makes you boring. :rommie:
Click to expand...

One of my complaints about how Trek handles aliens vs. Humans.

Despite being vibrant when compared to Humans, each alien culture is very monolithic unto itself. One language, one religion, one culture. "What's that? Oh that's Klingon this or that..."

What, these other cultures don't have diversity among themselves? All Bajorans share the same religion (except those who worship the Pah Wraiths)? Klingons only have one language or one dialect?
 
I do agree that Star Trek portrays alien civilizations in a much too monolithic way; they are more caricatures then actual civilizations.
 
DiSiLLUSiON said:
I do agree that Star Trek portrays alien civilizations in a much too monolithic way; they are more caricatures then actual civilizations.
Click to expand...

I'm reminded of Babylon 5 and how they tried to address the issue but somehow, someway, horribly crashed and burned. The episode's moral center focused on how diverse and almost uncooperative all the hero races were, until Sinclair gathered all the delegates and representatives to show diversity and all its multicultural positives.

That all sounds well and good, but here's the problem: each alien race had a representative of some sort. When it came to Humans, Sinclair presented leaders from almost every major religion on Earth. So while the Minbari had maybe one or two people there, Earth had well over a dozen and a half. Way to further the idea of monolithic alien cultures there, guys!
 
Temis the Vorta said:
USS_Triumphant said:
DiSiLLUSiON said:
I believe we will, eventually, evolve beyond the need of group identification, religiously dictated inhibitions and the need for wealth, but will take us some time to get there. We'll have to get capitalistic greed and organized religion out of the picture, first.
Click to expand...
We're closer than you think. We'll be the Borg any time now.
Click to expand...

Yep. People will be pining for the good old days when humanity wasn't just a bland vanilla blob. Ever notice how Star Trek essentially ignores human culture in favor of vibrant alien cultures which have all the bad old stuff like nationalism, species-ism, religion, hostility, imperialism, greed, etc that humanity has given up? The Star Trek philosophy just makes you boring. :rommie:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not sure I like all of the 24th century, as portrayed on Trek. I mean, I'm definitely in favor of no hunger, no want, equal opportunity for everybody, conquering disease, a clean and unlimited source of power, etc., etc....

But does tolerance and having everything you need have to make everybody so dang bland? I sure hope not.

And smug? Oh, dear God, the smugness of our future selves. The certainty that they know what is best, that anyone who differs significantly from them is not merely different but actually wrong, that anybody who has different values merely needs to be enlightened...

It's awful. And it's not right.

So I hope we do make it to a 24th century, but I hope we manage to do so without creating a monoculture. In fact, I don't believe tolerance and democracy - real tolerance and real democracy - would result in a monoculture. I think real tolerance and real democracy, combined with all that other nice stuff, would result in a wide variety of people - some intellectual, some not; some pacifists, some not (I just read the fine DS9 novel Hollow Men, which is what brought this one to mind); some religious, some not; some devoted to preserving the culture of their ancestors, some always wanting the next new thing - etc., etc., etc. So...kind of like what we have now, but since nobody would be in need and nobody would be threatened, we'd all figure out a way to live together in something approximating harmony.

Leave that "Everybody believes all the same stuff" garbage to the dictatorships.
 
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JustKate said:
But does tolerance and having everything you need have to make everybody so dang bland? I sure hope not.

And smug? Oh, dear God, the smugness of our future selves. The certainty that they know what is best, that anyone who differs significantly from them is not merely different but actually wrong, that anybody who has different values merely needs to be enlightened...
Click to expand...

Just started TNG in order and they are smirking at the barbarity of other cultures several times so far. DS9 seemed a lot less smug. People eat all sorts of different stuff on the Prom and it's all good. maybe that was due to its being post-GR?
 
^ Maybe - in fact, I think you're probably right. And in addition, it's also possibly because it was later in the franchise's history. Star Trek, bless its heart, has grown over the years, though that growth is at times pretty stop-and-go. TNG did as well...

But even in DS9, the humans as a group are still pretty dull. Many individuals are not, but their cultures? Eh. I mean, take Sisko for example. He is not at all a boring man, and yet somehow DS9 manages to make New Orleans - New Orleans! - dull. I wouldn't have thought that possible.
 
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