Can the Academy be longer than four years?

[Lord Garth]

Is four years really enough for training if you want to be a science officer? Medical officers seem to be an eight-year program and are graduated as lieutenants, probably so as to not penalize them for graduating later, if Bashir and the way things are in real life are anything to go by... but what about sciences?

 

[Ghel]

Since an Original Series episode showed that Ohura's brain could be wiped clean in one episode and she could be a fully functional officer the next, perhaps Starfleet Academy uses some super-advanced learning techniques.

I bet that they have everyone plugged in to computers ala "The Matrix" when nobody's looking.

 

[RoJoHen]

It could be like college, where there's 4 years of basis Starfleet training and then you go off to Starfleet grad school to become specialized in a certain field.

 

[Timo]

Forget about sciences - if your engineers graduate half-baked, you risk getting pretty crispy yourself...

It does seem that four years is enough for the basic training of an engineering specialist, or a person who later assumes the role of an engineering specialist. And we don't really know that any of our doctors would have graduated at higher than Ensign rank or studied for more than the standard four years, either. Medical personnel such as Nurse Ogawa are seen carrying the Ensign pip, although we don't know whether this is a standard step on the path to becoming a practicing MD or not (or even whether Ogawa held a doctorate or not).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[captcalhoun]

well, there was that captain of the Beagle (merrik?) who failed a psychosimulator test in his 5th year in 'Bread and Circuses'

 

[Haytil]

I think that most schools would take longer than 4 years to teach the kind of science that Starfleet science officers are familiar with.

However, I think Starfleet Academy is an exception, because they seem to only take candidates who have already done a supreme amount of learning on their own. Students go into the academy already armed with the knowledge of physics and mathematics that modern graduate schools teach nowadays, for instance.

Take a look at that 10 year old running through the halls of the Enterprise because he didn't want to do his calculus homework ("Home Soil?"). Or the candidates testing along with Wesley when he fails the test the first time ("Coming of Age?").

They know a lot more than people do at their age in our time period. Either all kids are like that and undergraduate/graduate schools in the 24th century only need a total of 4 years to bring students up to speed - or Starfleet only accepts the best of the best, who are the only people who have already taught themselves basic undergraduate and graduate science and mathematics on their own beforehand.

 

[Therin of Andor]

captcalhoun said:
well, there was that captain of the Beagle (merrik?) who failed a psychosimulator test in his 5th year in 'Bread and Circuses'

After ST II, the accepted "fanon" about the Academy seemed to be that the regular course was four years, but then some graduates could go to "command school" - perhaps for another year? - which is why Saavik had a different uniform to the regular cadets.

I always assumed Merik failed his test during his "command school" year. The psychosimulator test sounds like the "Kobayashi Maru" scenario to me.

 

[Timo]

Kirk was also hanging around the Academy for quite some time, apparently holding Lieutenant (jg?) rank while teaching Gary Mitchell. Saavik took her test at Lt(jg) rank. Perhaps it is up to the student to decide whether to proceed with Command School right after the four years that give Ensign commission (thus going through "fifth year"), or whether to wait a bit.

That is, "fifth year" could be an inaccurate slang expression for the Command School, or then an accurate description of one way of attending that School. But it doesn't seem to be the only possible way. While Saavik and perhaps Kirk took their command training at higher than Ensign rank, Picard in "Tapestry" seemed happy to leave the Academy at that rank despite wearing Command colors and having command ambitions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[LiChiu]

The four years at the academy should be just a starting point. Training would continue on board starships or other posts.

 

[Trekwatcher]

Therin of Andor said:

captcalhoun said:
well, there was that captain of the Beagle (merrik?) who failed a psychosimulator test in his 5th year in 'Bread and Circuses'

After ST II, the accepted "fanon" about the Academy seemed to be that the regular course was four years, but then some graduates could go to "command school" - perhaps for another year? - which is why Saavik had a different uniform to the regular cadets.

I always assumed Merik failed his test during his "command school" year. The psychosimulator test sounds like the "Kobayashi Maru" scenario to me.

I would go even further and suggest that after an intial period of possibly 4 years, many people go on to further training (command, engineering, life sciences, etc) but that those years are substantially carried out away from the academy and on starships, hospital stations, etc. It would give people the time to develop additional skills at the level needed for independent function. Sort of like how physicians can do residency and fellowship after med school to obtain specialty and sub-specialty skills.

 

[Mysterion]

Lord Garth said:
Is four years really enough for training if you want to be a science officer? Medical officers seem to be an eight-year program and are graduated as lieutenants, probably so as to not penalize them for graduating later, if Bashir and the way things are in real life are anything to go by... but what about sciences?

I could see it working similar tothe way present-day military academies work (at least here in the US). You go do the four years, and then you go to more schooling depending on the specialty/branch you will be working in. For example an Army Armor (tanks) officer would go to West Point for his four years, and then go to Fort Knox for Armor Officer Basic School, and from there would be posted to his first unit, usually as a Second Lieutenant. Later, he would go back to Knox for an Armor Officer Advanced Course (usually before being assigned as a company commander).

So I could see a Starfleet science officer doing his/her four years at San Francisco, and then going off to some sort of sciences speciality course somewhere before being posted to a starship, starbase, whatever.

 

[JM1776]

Of course, considering that Starfleet Academy is drawn from the creme de la creme of what is conservatively a two or even three trillion strong population, it's reasonable to assume that just about every one of its members is at least tremendously gifted and creative. People who could acquire the equivalent of a university degree in a year or two would be the norm rather than the exception, and those who could absorb a doctorate in just a few months not particularly uncommon. Consider the esoteric pursuits of even the "lower decks" officers we've seen: They're usually on the cutting edge of even that in which they merely dabble. What we consider genius would be quite commonplace, and I'd wager that most of us here, considered well above average intelligence, would be patted on the head and sent away with a chuckle at how cute we were for applying to Starfleet Academy.

 

[Meredith]

Can an old person who decides in their 30's or 40's to join the fleet go to the academy, or do they have a special academy for old duffers who want to join starfleet?

 

[Crewman47]

Well we have seen older people in there 40s and 50's as Ensigns and LTJG's and even lower grade NCO's on at least the later Trek shows which might seem to imply that they joined later than the standard age of 18.

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, this may simply reflect the fact that Starfleet doesn't have an "up or out" policy as regards its officers. Note how in "Tapestry", Picard earns but a single promotion during fifty years of service...

On the third hand, Starfleet employs aliens. And not only nonhumans who would reach the sufficient maturity after sixty years of childhood, but also humans who are quite alien to us in their lifestyle, as pointed out above. Would these supergeniuses settle for just one career during their 140 years of active life? There may be plenty of people who only get interested in the service at fifty or sixty, and are still in perfect physical health, and offer a skill set that Starfleet would be idiotic to let pass.

There isn't much reason for Starfleet to limit its entry age to, say, 17-19. The physical requirements probably aren't stringent for such an "indoors" service, and the mental ones can be satisfied by the Wesleys of the world at 15 or earlier, or then at 75 or later.

But Starfleet might always have use for brawn over brain, too. Perhaps the strict standards of mental excellence only apply to people who try to get in outside the standard entry age? That would work to the benefit of Starfleet all right. These hopefuls might also offer different skill sets: the Wesleys would compete for a yearly quota of child progidies, their graying counterparts for another quota of senior experts, but there might also be a similar competition for 30-something martial arts masters or six-year-old telepaths.

Such a setup would be plausible in the scifi context; it would match the evidence of Wesley's underage entry exam in "Coming of Age" and the graying Ensign extras on the background; and it would allow for the otherwise conventional portrayal of Starfleet as a standard 20th century military organization.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dorothy_Zbornak]

Crewman47 said:
Well we have seen older people in there 40s and 50's as Ensigns and LTJG's and even lower grade NCO's on at least the later Trek shows which might seem to imply that they joined later than the standard age of 18.

It can't be based on age, it would have to be based on whether or not they can pass the academic and physical requirements. What if, somehow, an Ocampan from VOY wanted to enroll--they only live to be 12, so they could hardly be disqualified just for that. Surely there are other species in the Federation with shorter lifespans than Humans et al.

 

[Timo]

Given the giant pool of human hopefuls, though, it might be that the Academy largely discriminates against aliens, boy wonders and the like, and only taps their unconventional potential through limited quotas.

This might be politically preferable to all parties involved: Earth gets rid of its pathologically adventurous young rabble-rousers, the Federation gets a military with plenty of disruptor fodder, and the non-Earth members don't have to enlist much, but when they do, it's their best and brightest, to Starfleet's benefit and the homeworld's pride.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[nx1701g]

I always took it as there were continuation schools (sort of like a masters track). For example Bashir is either 26 or 27 in Emissary and it's his first assignment out of Starfleet Medical School).

 

[Timo]

It's not really said to be his first assignment, to be exact. All that is said is that he requested to be assigned to DS9; perhaps the request was not granted immediately?

Just nitpicking...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimbo1973]

Im agree with the majority..Four years of "undergraduate" type training then specialize..either at a school or on your post..it seems there would have to be some sort of advanced training..obviously Doctors have to stay current on tech..so certainly there are more schools and training courses that would have to be taken..like a basic command course, then you would probably have to got to a more advanced training school..to aquire skills you'd need to be say a first Officer....