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Can DC's "Rebirth" teach DSC lessons?

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In 2011, DC comics did a reboot, designed to bring in new readers, by giving them a fresh jumping on point. It was called "New 52". Despite a couple of decent comics, it is generally regarded as a failure. The new titles ironically ended up being confusing for new fans, and alienated many existing ones - the characteristics that had made the characters popular in the first place were written out of them. DC held 27% of the comic market (to Marvel's 40%).

It was supposed to galvanize the company’s dismal sales numbers and bring in new readers by modernizing characters and eliminating decades of backstory.

In the short run, it created a temporary increase in sales by encouraging existing DC Comics readers to buy more books. In the long run, it produced no appreciable increase in sales. It made sweeping changes that pissed off existing readers while simultaneously making continuity even more confusing for new ones.

In 2016, they gave up and decided to simply do a 'soft reboot' wherein the continuity was preserved, but they would try to get back to the essentials of what made a hero popular. It was called "Rebirth". DC's market share completely flipped and improved to 44% (to Marvel's 34%). It was a hit. Not that numbers are everything, but it was a reflection of how people felt about Rebirth; it actually produced solid title after solid title.

DC is making better money than it has made in a long time based on a more diverse creative pool than the New 52, a more relaxed attitude towards allowing characters to guest in other books (creating that important superhero sense of being connected to a wider universe), as well as pushing a slew of interesting new characters into the spotlight and taking a back to basics approach when it comes to the classic ones who were most struggling.

Supergirl, Green Arrow, and Batgirl and the Birds of Prey have all received critical acclaim, but so have stories about lesser-known characters in titles like Deathstroke and Detective Comics. Sales leapt in title after title and the word of mouth has remained excellent.

What was their back to basics approach with the failing titles? Not that DSC is failing - it is allegedly very successful for CBS - but it has been... divisive amongst fans and critics. After the mistakes of New 52, DC just took a white board and listed the essential and most ideal Platonic form of each comic - to just begin afresh emotionally, without actually ditching continuity:

...once they had it mapped out, they realized they were missing the point. What they needed wasn’t a cosmic shakeup — they’d already done that, and look at where it had gotten them. Though they still wanted to execute an attention-grabbing event, they decided to start small. The tactic was to hit upon what Lee refers to as “the most Platonic, idealistic version of each of these characters.”

“We sat down in a room together, and one wall of windows looks out on Burbank and on the other wall is a big whiteboard,” he recalled. “Geoff’s like, ‘Alright, what are the greatest Green Arrow stories ever told?’” Percy gave his answers. Then Johns told him to list all the recurring motifs and plot devices that make Green Arrow unique. And all the most important supporting characters. And the villains. The whiteboard filled. “It starts as kind of a spider-web cluster, and we build out from there,” Percy said. “We figure out, ‘Okay, if you have that, what would be the greatest Green Arrow story line we could tell?’”

I'm not necessarily saying that DSC runs contrary to some Platonic ideal form of what Star Trek should be - nor does Star Trek need to be PG-rated - but in the show generally, perhaps what needs to be rediscovered is more of the fundamental appeal of Star Trek.

The problem strikes me as being akin to the problem Superman faced as a character - to quote one article "Superman is constantly criticized as a concept too old-fashioned for modern audiences" - but the fundamental appeal of Superman lies in the very thing that some people scorn without understanding him "the optimism and sense of moral duty at the core of his character ... scorned by people who don’t get that that’s the whole point". Superman's Rebirth comic was a turnaround success - from least popular to most popular.

What happens if we ask those same questions? What are the greatest Star Trek stories ever told? What would the recurring motifs and plot devices be? What then would be the greatest Star Trek story one could tell?

It strikes me that season one of Discovery resembled the New 52 reboot. It was perhaps a little too enamoured with 'prestige television'. It tried to upset ideals for the sake of change, believing perhaps too much in the public perception that Star Trek was just camp retrofuturism. But audiences and critics don't always get it. That is not to say that those core motifs can't be told in visceral 21st century ways. Marvel Studios has has consistently updated it's characters without altering their moral fundamentals, which is why they dominate the film industry. Perhaps DSC is in the early stages of a rebirth now - Ethan Peck's Spock re-presents many important aspects of Spock - one of the first mixed-race characters on television, a man of great pride, an outsider wherever he goes, who has wrapped himself in intellect to shield him from a world that judges too swiftly.
 
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Well, the point of Rebirth is that it isn't a reboot.

They didn't need to reset continuity, just start writing them as they are at their best.

That said, one day perhaps, I would like to see a full reboot of Star Trek made much more hard science fiction, but preserving the core motifs.
 
I see no need to fundamentally change a series which, by the limited metrics available, is doing very well.

It risks burning existing viewers, and has no guarantee of winning back any others. Indeed, it could be perceived as an indication of desperation and failure (and no doubt would be portrayed as such by the usual suspects).

Enterprise tried a fan-friendly soft reboot and only continued to bleed viewers. Indeed, the most fanservicey and fan-acclaimed episodes of the fourth season - In a Mirror Darkly - were among the lowest rated.
 
Which Star Trek? The franchise has been so varied, what are we going backwards *to* if we go backwards? And I don't mean prequel, I mean going back to the "pure" Star Trek that seems to change with each critic's attempt to describe its ideal.
 
Indifference is the opposite of love.

I think fanbase churn is well under way. It gives the illusion that things are alright when in effect the franchise may have suffered a net loss in fan engagement (especially thanks to shows like The Orville which can provide a refuge).

I think people here aren't going to acknowledge this because this is fandom central but outside of this insular clique I am not seeing evidence of pop culture impact. Little in the way of merch, etc...

That's not to say Trek wasn't already suffering under the franchise fatigue of Berman. I don't deny that. But that was a whole other problem than what's going on now.

We'll see if any of these other shows that are supposed to be coming out help bring people back, but I think anything that is supervised by Alex Kurtzman is going to alienate the old guard, including the Picard show.

CBS needs to do with Alex Kurtzman what WB did with Zack Snyder.
 
I have always said Star Trek is different things to different people. You get 10 Trek fans in a room and ask them what their ideal Star Trek story is, you’ll get 20 answers. I have watched Star Trek since I was 7 years old when TNG premiered. It has had, like anything that has gone on for years, ups and downs and what I consider to be good, someone else might consider trash and vice versa. That doesn’t make either of us right or wrong, that allows us to have an opinion.

I have been relatively pleased with Discovery, even if it has not been perfect. I, for one, thing canon is a great tapestry to build stories from. It adds texture to the tales. But the moment we rely so heavily on it that it limits the storytelling, I lose interest. It, for me, becomes all about checking boxes. For others, it becomes the version of Star Trek, it’s their candy.

When I see the comments about how this isn’t Star Trek and how much Orville has taken the mantle, I’m just floored. I, personally, enjoy Orville and it reminds me of TNG circa 1990. But it’s not Trek. I appreciate what it does but if the series ended tomorrow, I wouldn’t miss it much. Star Trek should continue to evolve. And like it or not, that’s what I see with Disco. I don’t always love every episode (I’m a little concerned with the direction the show is going after last night) but I think I would miss it.

So, to bring this home: no, I’m not in favor of a soft reboot. Let this be its own Star Trek. Use canon as a tapestry but don’t overdo it like the show is sometimes guilty of. Tell interesting stories about people and their failings and how they reach for perfection. That was the message of season one and while the storytelling might have been a little sloppy, it works. At least for me.
 
I don't think the two things are comparable scalewise.

Straightening out DC's continuity means figuring out which of 15 different origin stories for some characters are "real."

Star Trek's continuity mostly just has issues like what materials uniforms were made from and how much lens flare there was in space...
 
I mean I've been watching the show for nearly 30 years, so I guess that makes me old guard too. But yeah not being open to change and expecting the same thing over and over again whilst being fanatical about 'canon' has never really worked for me.

Not just whining about canon, but simple storycraft. For instance, take this article from IO9. Is this in any way an enthusiastic endorsement of the show?

Now read through some of the comments. Here on TrekBBS I see the most support for the show, but outside of this bubble you'll get a better sense of how this is being received.

You want to just keep going on insulting the critics, be my guest, but it won't make the show any better.

I also suspect the strongest supporters of Discovery do it more as an act of defiance than due to its actual merits. Some people just love to support unpopular things, like those who drive AMC Pacers.
 
I also suspect the strongest supporters of Discovery do it more as an act of defiance than due to its actual merits. Some people just love to support unpopular things, like those who drive AMC Pacers.

It's being received well enough for a third season and has become the bedrock for a host of other shows. Your dislike of the show and the opinion of some reviewers is yours to treasure and exult over. But it hasn't applied any breaks to the success the show is having.
 
I haven't read comics in a long time. I stopped with Flashpoint in 2011 and have no idea what they've done since. So I don't know about that. What I do know about is "Back to Basics". Before DSC, the last three incarnations of Star Trek were "Back to Basics": VOY, ENT, and the Kelvin Films. VOY because they wanted to get away from all the lore that was built up on TNG and DS9, so they were cut off from the Alpha Quadrant and every race they encountered was new. ENT decided to go Pre-Kirk. They had Archer, T'Pol, and Trip as sort of a Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, but it came across to me too much like "Star Trek for the Bush Era". The Kelvin Films actually did bring back Kirk and Spock, through a new timeline. So we've had a lot of "Back to Basics".

I'm sick of "Back to Basics" and DSC is the first Star Trek series since DS9 (20 years ago!) to not be "Back to Basics". I like it. We've had it the other way long enough. Not every version of Star Trek needs to be "TOS or TNG with Current Production Values". Don't worry. Eventually, you'll probably have some version of that again (besides The Orville). But for those who want the Basics Approach: your turn is up. It's mine right now.
 
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The articles I quoted above were not really saying anything about catering to any particular demographic - that was just a minor aside - they were mainly talking about how DC managed to start writing critically acclaimed series again, or at the very least, consistently solid ones - i.e. their emphasis was "when we simply make a good consistent product, it brings customers back, and builds new loyalty."

So a reboot? What lots of folks have been calling for, for a decade-plus now.

Which Star Trek? The franchise has been so varied, what are we going backwards *to* if we go backwards?

I have always said Star Trek is different things to different people.

Straightening out DC's continuity means figuring out which of 15 different origin stories for some characters are "real."

I haven't read comics in a long time. I stopped with Flashpoint in 2011 and have no idea what they've done since. So I don't know about that. What I do know about is "Back to Basics".

I think this is a misunderstanding of what those articles were trying to say.

From the sounds of it, Jeoff Johns and the others were not doing 'back to basics'.

They were taking the best parts of every iteration and casting aside the fat.

Making a single gestalt of the greatest iconic traits of a character, that anyone with a little background would know immediately - that Bruce Wayne is driven by dark rumination on what would have been different if he hadn't left the theatre for example - in my opinion at least, early DSC was very hard to identify as Star Trek - we didn't even hear the captain's log all season - it hardly identified what Starfleet's mission was, or what the Federation actually valued or believed in.

This does not sounds like a reverential fundamentalist directive - it's my fault for not conveying what they were saying..... Say there were 7 different creative directions for Barry Allen/Flash over decades - Johns told the writers for Rebirth to just list the things that were most essential the to character from each, and combine them into a "essential Deathstroke" or "meta Barry Allen", who was like the Platonic ideal form of what Barry Allen or Slade Wilson was - to express that anew - and to not worry about justifying it, to just write it like that using every sly trick a modern writer had - to tell the best Flash story they could - then with that one directive give writers free reign - totally hands off within that small directive.

Polygon: DC Comics' Rebirth Worked Because It's Actually Good

Okay maybe that does not sound too revolutionary - authors try to get back to the Platonic essence of a character all the time - but it is different from what is commonly framed or argued on TrekBBS. This forum has a very prescribed view of the debate - divisive ideas like old guard and new guard, utopian and dystopian, which do not justice to nuance at all - people who argue for some principled characters are never arguing for utopianism for example. TrekBBS is very very stuck in polarised categories - if you say that there is merit to be found in trying to recapture the essence of past Trek, people might assume that you mean empty self-referential fanwankery or 'nostalgia' - rather than any complex point.

Jon gives Clark that element so elusive in bad Superman stories and so abundant in good ones — it puts the focus on Clark’s humanity and vulnerability. It gives Clark moments to wonder what advice either of his fathers would have given him about parenting — when the ones from his old universe and his new adopted one are all dead. It packs the book with domestic family moments that give its wild, sci-fi action scenes weight, depth and contrast.

And that brings us right back around to how well Superman uses Clark-as-a-Dad to show the best of Superman as a character.

It’s the oft voiced question of any modern Superman adaptation: How do you take a character like Superman and make him “grounded?” You don’t do it with realism of physics, politics or narrative rules — you do it with realism of emotion.

Superman is constantly criticized as a concept too old-fashioned for modern audiences, and now he’s literally from an older universe. He’s always been a character whose main conceit has been about being an orphan from another world, and stranding him in another continuity only doubles down on the qualities that have made him so enduring.

And what better character to represent the success of an older version of the DC Universe than Superman himself, the first superhero? There’s actually a certain amount of precedent. And what better way to showcase the optimism and sense of moral duty at the core of his character — and so scorned by people who don’t get that that’s the whole point — than in how he imparts it to his son.

I don't believe you can build a franchise by ignoring what makes it enduring or popular - see the DC Expanded Universe - compare it to the Marvel Cinematic Universe - contrast them. But not all of Star Trek's best features are intellectual. Think of all the things that Star Trek has done, and done rather well, purely for fun, which are barely used in this instalment - would require hardly any budget these days - Star Trek occasionally had pure action adventure episodes (i.e. think Stargate SG1's pitched battles with Jaffa, or destroying Anubis's mothership) - Star Trek didn't always take itself seriously - Star Trek also did everything from cosmic horror to war stories (that DSC perhaps considers beneath itself). If there was a white board with the best episodes on, they would include everything from Naval Submarine Battles to Sexual Tension Comedy - it would probably look different from pure prestige television, even if it pivoted that way - it could make room for pure Tom Clancy or H P Lovecraft. Ironically, many people felt Star Trek had a reputation for being stately, but in a way, isn't DSC itself (hot take) being stately in eschewing things like military episodes, and comedy scenes? What is a common thread that binds all these together? I would argue, that like Star Wars, Babylon 5, Marvel and DC, it had some common factors; the crew being family, tenderness, exploration of moral philosophy, humanism, the exploration of human nature to name a few.

This kind of direction can fail of course, if writers can't actually figure out the appeal and present it with renewed clarity, but I think franchises are stronger for trying.
 
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