Can a "Realistic" Space Battle be Fun?

[kv1at3485]

If the many of the plasma blobs were supposed to be missiles, practically there was no difference between those 'missiles' and some other dumb direct fire weapon. By missile, I did mean something that manoeuvred and all of that. At the moment, I can only recall three times when such ordnance was used.

I'm going to skip over the 'space fighters vs space missile' thing. Most of you will already know where I stand on that issue and why. Thos of you who don't can use Google and find one of the many debates on the issue littering the interweb.

When I referred to acceleration, I am also referring to manoeuvrability, and the whole relative lateral velocity and acceleration thing (all of which are related.) Since the ships do not exhibit mind-boggling performance, that makes them all big, lumpy, and slow targets.

What makes them easy targets is that they fight at such short (within visual) ranges. None of these guys are stealthed in the visual parts of the spectrum. Supposedly they're all playing hard and fast when it comes to radar, or whatever, but nonetheless they can all be tracked quite easily with the Mark 1 eyeball.

Couple this with how everybody loves to charge head on, and it becomes (or should become) ridiculously easy to hit everything on the B5 battlefield as it is. However, there are far too many instances where 'sitting ducks' were missed to put much faith in the sophistication of their fire control, It's as if they've thrown anything close to visual targeting out of the airlock.

The whole lamentable situation is best seen in the EA. That near extinction event they experienced, courtesy of the Minbari, should have taught them a whole slew of lessons that would have rectified all of my complaints. Apparently they learned little, and applied even less.

EDIT: Big mistake. I edited over my initial post.

 

[Timo]

Didn't they have a shitload of missiles in B5? These merely followed beeline trajectories because the targets couldn't maneuver. And they looked like homogeneous bolts of plasma most of the time, but quite probably weren't.

(The bolts fired from the Starfuries were referred to as "Fox Five", actually, perhaps expanding on the missile firing jargon of today where Fox One is the heat-seeker and Fox Two the SARH or ARH missile.)

And they repeatedly referred to jamming there, excusing the seemingly poorly working fire control. The Minbari even had some sort of a visual obfuscation system, making them be not quite where they seemed to be.

The acceleration limitations witnessed might actually be quite realistic, since we didn't see solid evidence for inertia control. The only way to accelerate those ships and craft at more than a couple of gees was to suck them into or out of a jump gate, which apparently was the single major physics-defying piece of tech.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kolrad]

There was at least one battle in B5 that I think took a more realistic approach, and did so to a neat artistic effect, though it's easy to miss.

It's the battle between the last of the Narn fleet and some Shadow vessels in the first half of "The Long, Twilight Struggle." The neat thing about the battle is that almost all of it takes place with the two sides too far apart to be visible to each other. The Shadow vessels are coming toward the Narn the whole time the battle is going on, and by the time they get there, there is nothing left of the Narn.

I didn't notice that the battle was constructed that way until about the third time I saw it, though, because there are a lot of cuts between the two sides, making it seem like they are closer together than they are. But it still makes for a chilling scene, and I liked the attempt to be more accurate with the distances that would be involved in space combat.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

There were missiles, physical projectiles, plasma shots, electromagnetic beam weapons... even stuff that really resembled lightning... in B5.

The battle sequences in B5 were AT LEAST as "reasonable" as anything we've ever seen in any other science fiction show. In fact, the much-lauded "NuBSG" SFX sequences very strongly resemble the sort of things seen in B5. Compare the sequences from the opening movie of nuBSG to the battle sequences in "Severed Dreams." Other than the presence of a "ramming maneuver" in "Severed Dreams," and the annoying presences of a rebel-yell-hollering Kara, and lots of cheesy "shakeycam" stuff... the two scenes feel surprisingly similar!

 

[Ronald Held]

Yes,please.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

There's a surprisingly informative passage in the "Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual" that posits all starship comabat will be handled a) beyond visual range, and b) entirely by computer. It would also be rather quiet, until stuff starts blowing up, and even then the explosions would only be heard by the target ship.

Mark

 

[Masao]

Modern aerial/naval combat on Earth is going to be like that in a few years, if it isn't like that already.

 

[Dayton3]

IIRC, one of the only Star Trek space battles we saw in a series where both ships were traveling at warp speed was the second battle with the Borg ship in "Q Who?".

Both the Enterprise and the Borg ship were traveling at more than warp nine when they were exchanging weapons fire.

I thought that sequence was pretty exciting.

 

[Newtype_A]

I'm one of those scrooges who always complains about producers/writers/directors trying to turn what has always been optimal as a character-centered scifi drama into a mindless zoomy action extravaganza. In that case, a "realistic" space battle could be as fun or as boring as you want it to be, the important part is for the scene to revolve around its main characters.

Some of the best TOS battles -- the ones that stand out in memory -- managed to portray much of the battle from INSIDE the bridge; balance of terror had far more effects shots on the viewscreen than from the actual exterior of the ship. This keeps the Captain and Crew in frame, even while the fancy lights of torpedoes are dancing around their heads.

In that case, a "realistic" space battle can be EXTREMELY fun, but only using cinematography that revolves around character action primarily and exterior shots only as a plus.

As precedent, look at the torpedo sniping in TUC; where the Bird of Prey and Enterprise are almost never in the same shot together. This is partly because the BoP is invisible, but you could just as easily say that the Klingons are so far away that you couldn't see them anyway. Most of the effects shots were either of a torpedo being fired or a torpedo smacking the hull; otherwise, it was more a battle of stamina between Kirk's nerves (and, by analogy, his shields) and Chang's insanity (and, by analogy, his torpedoes). Personally, I found that to be one of the most "fun" battle scenes in the entire trekiverse.

So take that and run with it. Add a few maneuvering orders (say, "Firing point procedures! Pivot at warp 2, give him a full spread!") and cut to exterior shots only when the SHIP is doing something terribly dramatic like firing torpedoes, making some really beautiful turning maneuver or getting belted across the face by disruptor fire. Same again for the bad guys. Whenever possible, use the VIEWSCREEN to show the action so it remains clear that the thing they're looking at it really, really far away; plus, watching it all on the viewscreen gives you opportunities to splice in chatter from Our Heroes in the background so you at least know they're still there, working feverishly to win the day and so on.

 

[Newtype_A]

Mark_Nguyen said:
There's a surprisingly informative passage in the "Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual" that posits all starship comabat will be handled a) beyond visual range, and b) entirely by computer. It would also be rather quiet, until stuff starts blowing up, and even then the explosions would only be heard by the target ship.

Mark

It also explicitly mentioned that the two keys to winning any battle were stealth and quickness. The first one to get off a successful shot usually wins, rather like submarine combat. Key to getting that first shot is detecting the other guy before he detects you, and then targeting him with your radars before he has a chance to track your scans back to the source and get off a kill shot.

Would be interesting to see this translate into Trek combat. Sensors in the Trekiverse are too often used as these magical beams that scan scan through just about anything at any time and determine any piece of data you happen to need for plot purposes; I mean, really, what exactly is Malcolm looking at when he glances at his screen and announces "They're charging weapons!" Did the computer tell him that or did the sensors actually report to him a sudden increase in electrical potential in a certain device on the alien ship's hull that may or may not be a weapon?


If we speak of realistic trek battles, the battle might actually start something along the lines of the science officer noticing an "unidentified heat source" in a particular direction; the Captain decides to risk turning on active sensors, and on one sweep they suddenly realize they heat source is a Klingon warship firing its RCS thrusters to perform a small orbit change. But having scanned the ship, they've just given away their position; now it's a race to see who can get off the first shot, or who can spool up their warp engines fast enough to get the hell out of dodge.

 

[Tallguy]

Dayton3 said:
IIRC, one of the only Star Trek space battles we saw in a series where both ships were traveling at warp speed was the second battle with the Borg ship in "Q Who?".

Both the Enterprise and the Borg ship were traveling at more than warp nine when they were exchanging weapons fire.

I thought that sequence was pretty exciting.

That was TNG. And I think both ships were in frame.

In TOS, MOST battles were at warp. (Please don't argue the "Romulans with warp engines" here.) Journey to Babel certainly was.

 

[Newtype_A]

philbob said:
For some pretty intense realistic space battles check out the Mobile Suit Gundam Series either the Universal century with the one year war UC 0079 or Stardust Memories 0083

Actually, Char's Counterattack did a better job, considering the heavy use of decoys, ECM, long-range nuclear missiles, even longer-ranged gunfire. If you're shooting at something so far away that you can't reliably tell the difference between the enemy ship and a giant inflatable balloon SHAPED like an enemy ship, then you're in a space battle :thumbsup:

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Save for the psycho frame and newtype mumbo jumbo, I'd agree with you. 0083 however presented a much more military atmosphere, albeit unbalanced by notably flawed and immature charcaters (which was the point, but I digress).

Mark

 

[Dayton3]

Tallguy said:

Dayton3 said:
IIRC, one of the only Star Trek space battles we saw in a series where both ships were traveling at warp speed was the second battle with the Borg ship in "Q Who?".

Both the Enterprise and the Borg ship were traveling at more than warp nine when they were exchanging weapons fire.

I thought that sequence was pretty exciting.

That was TNG. And I think both ships were in frame.

In TOS, MOST battles were at warp. (Please don't argue the "Romulans with warp engines" here.) Journey to Babel certainly was.

In Journey to Babel, at least on the last pass by the Orion ship, both the Orions and the Enterprise were at sublight.

In "Q Who", the Enterprise and Borg ship were in the same frame part of the time. But not all.

When the Borg fired on the Enterprise, both ships were in the same frame, but when the Enterprise torpedoed the Borg ship, the ships were not in the same frame.

In "Errand of Mercy" it is not clear at all that the Enterprise and unseen Klingon ship were at warp or not.

The Enterprise had reached the designated coordinates to read the coded message from Starfleet command. I would assume that once you reach a certain set of coordinates that the ship would effectively halt.

In "The Ultimate Computer" it is pretty clear that all the Constitution class ships including the Enterprise are at warp.

In "Elaan of Troyius", only when the Enterprise torpedoes the Klingon ship at the very end are both ships at warp. The lack of warp capability by the Enterprise due to sabotage being a major plot point.

 

[Sec31Mike]

I think when Malcolm looks at his screen and says "they're charging weapons" he is seeing a particle emission profile that is consistent with the buildup of energy in a weapons array.

The sensors can detect the plasma grids of ships due to the extremely high amounts of energy they contain. This is the fundamental principle that allows them to target specific subsystems on an enemy vessel.

I would also think a Star Trek space battle would be foungt in 4 dimensions. The first 3 dimensions are the normal spatial X, Y, Z axes, and the 4th being the speed of both ships. I usually imagine the battles as an elegant dance in space where the ships jockey for position trying to use their best weapons on the enemies weaker part of the ship.

Torpedo blasts do generate a physical shock wave in space, so there would be a limited transfer of physical energy and perhaps sound. It is possible that feedback in the phaser beam could transfer some sound through to the firing vessel if it strikes it's target, it is after all an energy conduit.

Just more of my musings on Star Trek.

 

[philbob]

i give you that the tactics had drasticlyimproved by Chars counterattack but i like the styling of 0083 better thats why i chose it as a example....but the biggest thing is when they know they are going into battle they put on space suits kinda common scences you think

 

[Newtype_A]

On the space suits thing... that's something else I think might be interesting in the Trekiverse, add a bit of realism and maybe even some extra dramatic tension to the whole issue. After all, whenever a modern warship goes into battle, the entire crew wears life jackets and (in some cases) fireproof jackets for damage control. In most of the TOS movies we see engineering officers wearing radiation suits with handy clip-on oxygen masks, but I don't think that would be all that useful if some genetically engineered lunatic blasts a hole in the engine room with his phasers and vents the compartment into space. Oh wait...


I suppose it would be cost prohibitive for a Trek production to have a double wardrobe for battle scenes that consists of a realistic emergency space suit; probably the same reason "field jackets" and other nifty props for away missions never show up unless you're on a movie budget. But hey, novelists don't have budgets, just vocabularies...

 

[philbob]

actually its flak and kevlar (older versions of course not the OTV or MTV used by current US Forces in Iraq or Afganistan) they also depending on the Force Protection condition may have gas mask

 

[Strider]

OP, you might enjoy the Honor Harrington series by David Weber. It takes a lot of familiar elements of naval combat in the Hornblower and Aubrey/Maturin series and projects them into space combat. This is actually cooler than it might sound. You'll find a lot of references to "overhauling" enemy ships, or the comparative "broadside weight" of combatants. I think there's even a reference to "crossing the T" here and there.

Combat nearly always takes place at hundreds of thousands of kilometers. Opposing ships engage primarily with missiles equipped with bomb-pumped lasers or standard nukes. Essentially a bomb-pumped laser is a laser emitter with a nuke attached to it, and it pumps a lot of energy from the blast into beams of energy that tear into the enemy ship. Ships are equipped with ECM, interception missiles, and last-ditch laser point defense systems to defend themselves. Major fleet actions fought by "ships of the wall" (like a line only in three dimensional space, get it? ) typically involve the side with the highest broadside weight wearing down the networked point defenses of their enemy.

The action plays out really well in the books, and I think it'd also work really well onscreen. Nearly all of the action takes place on the command deck and the dialogue (along with the havoc wreaked by enemy fire) supplies all the excitement.

 

[Blamo]

To tell the truth, the only Trek I remember following TWOK template (which was really set up in TOS, especially "Balance of Terror") is TSFS and TUC.

TOS and TOS Era movies treated space battles as naval skirmishes and were supremely exciting, not just because of the effects but because to the tension it created. It also gave the ships a feeling of mass and power as they slowely brought weapons to bear on one another.
DS9, Voy and Ent treated most of the space battles as dog fights. Zap zap zap. Very nice special effects, but ultimately dull, for me atleast.