By Any Other Name and the Barrier

[RPJOB]

Working my way through TOS-R and catching a number of little things I'd missed before. For example, when Kirk and Rojan are talking about the Galactic Barrier it's said that no form of communication can cross the barrier at the edge of the galaxy. If that's the case then the Federation doesn't have a lot of information about conditions outside the Milky Way. No radio astronomy for example. I wonder if that is why the Enterprise was sent out in WNMHGB. They may have deduced that something was blocking radio (and perhaps subspace) signals but the exact nature of the barrier was a surprise to them.

 

[Warped9]

There's an inconsistency in this. The Federation obviously knows of other galaxies and such beyond the barrier. And in real terms radio astronomy was just starting to get off the ground in the 1960s. They weren't completely in the dark.

Even today with radio astronomy being used extensively there is still a great deal we don't know about what is within our own galaxy as well as beyond.

There is also the possibility the energy barrier is cyclical. It might not always be there or always be in the same place.

 

[RPJOB]

Yes, the Federation is aware of other galaxies but perhaps only though visual astronomy. Radio astronomy was first established in the 1930's by Karl Jansky. It didn't really take off until the 1960's but there were a number of radio telescopes built in the 30 years after the first detection of radio waves from the Milky Way.

Rojan does state that no form of communication can penetrate the barrier. I take this to mean radio or subspace radio as opposed to a visual for of communication such as a very powerful laser.

I would asume that the barrier is pretty much always there and surrounds the galaxy, at least in the area of the Federation. The Enterprise encountered it three times. It would be quite the coincidence if it just happened to manifest at those locations each time.

 

[Wingsley]

Just as obviously, most if not all spacefaring civilizations in the TOS Universe think of subspace/FTL when they think of interstellar or intergalactic communications. Given the structure of the STAR TREK Universe overall, it would make sense that negative energy (dark energy?) would pose a natural challenge to starships and communications technology. This might also explain how the Federation evolved peacefully and undisturbed with the Borg and Dominion at opposite corners of the Galaxy, and how the Borg and Dominion, being much closer to each other, are apparently not at war.

Normal lightspeed EM radio obviously has a place in the astronomy realm in TREK, but for deep space communications it's probably regarded as a dunsel.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It might be a case that the Barrier prevents any form of coherent audio-visual transmissions from getting through. It would still allow radio telescopes and long-range sensors to work (but limited to the speed-of-light), but actual directed messages would be reduced to little more than bursts of static.

 

[Timewalker]

Or it could have been as Peter David said in his novel (sorry, forget which one): The barrier is actually Q, hiding out for a brief time and it *was* a coincidence that Kirk happened to be the one to tangle with him.

Personally, I think it's absurd to think that we have a "fence" around our Galaxy.

 

[Green Shirt]

Personally, I think it's absurd to think that we have a "fence" around our Galaxy.

Its well known that fences make good neighbors. The Kelvans proved they were otherwise by jumping the fence.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Personally, I think it's absurd to think that we have a "fence" around our Galaxy.

I think they took the idea of stellar material left over after the creation of a star or planetary system and ratched it up to the nth degree for the entire Galaxy.

 

[Christopher]

No doubt Rojan meant FTL/subspace communication. Of course we can detect radio signals from outside the galaxy; it's how we know about the cosmic background radiation. And given how important inter/transgalactic radioastronomy has been to the development of modern astronomy and physics, I assume it must be possible in the Trek universe as well.

 

[RPJOB]

ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.
KIRK: Yes, I know. We've been there.
ROJAN: We managed to break through it with great difficulty. Our ship was destroyed. We barely managed to escape in a lifecraft. And now we have the means to begin our journey back to Andromeda.
SPOCK: Why use our vessel? Why not transmit a message to your galaxy?
ROJAN: No form of transmission can penetrate the barrier.

It's pretty clear that he's talking about any sort of communication not just FTL.

If it also blocks or scrambles radio waves then the information that they could learn from radio telescopes would be faulty if it were understandable at all. If you're looking for a signal in a particular band and it's smeared out then you're not really sure if you're seeing a signal or if something else has overwritten it. About the only thing we know for sure is that the barrier doesn't block light.

Then there's this:

SPOCK: A robot ship could be sent to Kelva with the Federation proposal.

If it's just the barrier blocking communication, why send a ship all the way to Kelva with the proposal? What if something happened to it on the way? Then no message would be sent and you wouldn't know if it had been delivered or received for 600 years (round trip time).

 

[UFO]

ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.

Does this mean there isn't one around the Kelva galaxy?

Then there's this:

SPOCK: A robot ship could be sent to Kelva with the Federation proposal.

If it's just the barrier blocking communication, why send a ship all the way to Kelva with the proposal? What if something happened to it on the way? Then no message would be sent and you wouldn't know if it had been delivered or received for 600 years (round trip time).

If not they could indeed just broadcast a message once on the other side of our barrier. But if the Kelva galaxy also has one, a ship would have to go all the way. Of course once there, they could set up transmitters past the barriers at each end for replies etc.

 

[Christopher]

ROJAN: No form of transmission can penetrate the barrier.

It's pretty clear that he's talking about any sort of communication not just FTL.

Oh, don't take every little syllable so literally. It's a work of fiction. There are a lot of things in Star Trek that don't make sense, and it's less frustrating if you let yourself be mentally flexible enough to rationalize them in ways that make more sense.

Heck, people speak figuratively or inaccurately all the time. Real speech is fraught with error and imprecision, so it doesn't make sense to assume that every single word ever spoken by characters in a TV show is absolute gospel. And sometimes people use shorthand. Rojan could have meant "no form of FTL transmission" but felt it was so obvious that it had to be FTL that he saw no need to be that specific. And I think you're forgetting an episode or two of TOS (and TMP) where Kirk was surprised to hear that a transmission was in "old-style radio," as if they considered that an obsolete technology in their era. Rojan could have the same mentality, thinking of subspace as the default form of transmission and neglecting the existence of a more antiquated form of communication that it wouldn't occur to him to use. (If you say you're going to send someone a text message, do you find it necessary to specify that you're doing it by cell phone rather than telegram? Of course not.)

Then there's this:

SPOCK: A robot ship could be sent to Kelva with the Federation proposal.

If it's just the barrier blocking communication, why send a ship all the way to Kelva with the proposal?

That's easy -- because it's 2.6 million light-years away! Subspace radio doesn't have unlimited range or speed, otherwise Voyager would've been in constant communication with Starfleet from day one. And that's across distances only 1-2 percent of the distance to the Andromeda Galaxy. Obviously a subspace signal just couldn't reach that far.

 

[UFO]

If it's just the barrier blocking communication, why send a ship all the way to Kelva with the proposal?

That's easy -- because it's 2.6 million light-years away! Subspace radio doesn't have unlimited range or speed, otherwise Voyager would've been in constant communication with Starfleet from day one. And that's across distances only 1-2 percent of the distance to the Andromeda Galaxy. Obviously a subspace signal just couldn't reach that far.

Or that.

 

[Warped9]

Here's something to consider: the Kelvans are arrogant as well as hypocrites.

They believe they're destined to rule. They believe they're superior in every way and no one can beat them in any way whatsoever.

But...

Their own ship is destroyed crossing the barrier...yet the Enterprise sails through without much difficulty. And the inferior humans (and Vulcan) outwit them handily.

Seems to me what the Kelvans believe what is or isn't possible is highly in question.


As to the energy barrier we know it exists, at least in that one region, during the Enterprise's five year mission, but before and after that we know nothing. In one of the early novels (yeah, I know it's not "official") a scientist theorized the barrier was a cyclical or periodic phenomena, something that would be there for a time, fade out or lessen in intensity and then return on a cyclical basis. It's as good an explanation as any. It could also be something a very powerful race put into place for unknown reasons.

 

[Timewalker]

Personally, I think it's absurd to think that we have a "fence" around our Galaxy.

I think they took the idea of stellar material left over after the creation of a star or planetary system and ratched it up to the nth degree for the entire Galaxy.

Yep... that's why we have no idea what's happening with the Pioneer and Voyager probes. Pioneer is as close to outside our Solar System as makes not a whole lot of difference, and the Voyager probes aren't that far behind. Of course they're going to encounter some mysterious Do Not Pass Go barrier out there...

Here's something to consider: the Kelvans are arrogant as well as hypocrites.

They believe they're destined to rule. They believe they're superior in every way and no one can beat them in any way whatsoever.

But...

Their own ship is destroyed crossing the barrier...yet the Enterprise sails through without much difficulty. And the inferior humans (and Vulcan) outwit them handily.

Seems to me what the Kelvans believe what is or isn't possible is highly in question.


As to the energy barrier we know it exists, at least in that one region, during the Enterprise's five year mission, but before and after that we know nothing. In one of the early novels (yeah, I know it's not "official") a scientist theorized the barrier was a cyclical or periodic phenomena, something that would be there for a time, fade out or lessen in intensity and then return on a cyclical basis. It's as good an explanation as any. It could also be something a very powerful race put into place for unknown reasons.

Personally, I've been wondering if all that mysterious stuff out there won't just turn out to be where all the lost single socks go when they escape from the dryer...

 

[Warped9]

Personally, I've been wondering if all that mysterious stuff out there won't just turn out to be where all the lost single socks go when they escape from the dryer...

Solved!

 

[RPJOB]

ROJAN: No form of transmission can penetrate the barrier.

It's pretty clear that he's talking about any sort of communication not just FTL.

Oh, don't take every little syllable so literally. It's a work of fiction. There are a lot of things in Star Trek that don't make sense, and it's less frustrating if you let yourself be mentally flexible enough to rationalize them in ways that make more sense.

Heck, people speak figuratively or inaccurately all the time. Real speech is fraught with error and imprecision, so it doesn't make sense to assume that every single word ever spoken by characters in a TV show is absolute gospel. And sometimes people use shorthand. Rojan could have meant "no form of FTL transmission" but felt it was so obvious that it had to be FTL that he saw no need to be that specific. And I think you're forgetting an episode or two of TOS (and TMP) where Kirk was surprised to hear that a transmission was in "old-style radio," as if they considered that an obsolete technology in their era. Rojan could have the same mentality, thinking of subspace as the default form of transmission and neglecting the existence of a more antiquated form of communication that it wouldn't occur to him to use. (If you say you're going to send someone a text message, do you find it necessary to specify that you're doing it by cell phone rather than telegram? Of course not.)

Then there's this:

SPOCK: A robot ship could be sent to Kelva with the Federation proposal.

If it's just the barrier blocking communication, why send a ship all the way to Kelva with the proposal?

That's easy -- because it's 2.6 million light-years away! Subspace radio doesn't have unlimited range or speed, otherwise Voyager would've been in constant communication with Starfleet from day one. And that's across distances only 1-2 percent of the distance to the Andromeda Galaxy. Obviously a subspace signal just couldn't reach that far.

Except we have this from Spock, who we assume would know such things.

SPOCK: Why use our vessel? Why not transmit a message to your galaxy?

A radio signal would take 2.6 million years but subspace should be much faster. If subspace communication were impossible why would Spock even mention it? Taken in the context of when the episode was written and ignoring any retcon by Voyager, it's obvious that Spock believen that such a signal was not only possible but the logical alternative. Rojan said that only the barrier at the edge of our galaxy was blocking communication.

Claiming something isn't possible ny citing a show written 30 years later isn't really playing by the rules. You have to look at what was written and intended at the time.

 

[Shatinator]

Here's something to consider: the Kelvans are arrogant as well as hypocrites.

They believe they're destined to rule. They believe they're superior in every way and no one can beat them in any way whatsoever.

But...

Their own ship is destroyed crossing the barrier...yet the Enterprise sails through without much difficulty. And the inferior humans (and Vulcan) outwit them handily.

Seems to me what the Kelvans believe what is or isn't possible is highly in question.


As to the energy barrier we know it exists, at least in that one region, during the Enterprise's five year mission, but before and after that we know nothing. In one of the early novels (yeah, I know it's not "official") a scientist theorized the barrier was a cyclical or periodic phenomena, something that would be there for a time, fade out or lessen in intensity and then return on a cyclical basis. It's as good an explanation as any. It could also be something a very powerful race put into place for unknown reasons.

Fascinating.

What early novel was this?

 

[scotpens]

What I find interesting about the Kelvans is that, in order to use the Enterprise, they not only “assume” human form (with no explanation of how they accomplish this), but their females take on the shape of gorgeous women in revealing outfits.

 

[UFO]

Claiming something isn't possible by citing a show written 30 years later isn't really playing by the rules. You have to look at what was written and intended at the time.

Point of order Mr Chairman.

Can I assume that later canon supersedes earlier canon but only from the "in universe" date that it is established?

What I find interesting about the Kelvans is that, in order to use the Enterprise, they not only “assume” human form (with no explanation of how they accomplish this), but their females take on the shape of gorgeous women in revealing outfits.

The first part needs no explanation. The second ... no, that doesn't need one either.