I agree but where the film really fails to the point of no return was not just the khan scream but kirk been revived after 5 minutes which immediately wipes away any real meaning to his death. killing a person and bringing them back in 5 minutes is bad writing to me.
why WOK works so well was that spock really died. the film ends with spock's death and kirk reflecting on everything and this is why WOK had depth as a film and STID barely has any depth.
why the writers felt they needed to put kirk dying and spock crying and screaming is beyond me. You are right this spock has not known kirk enough for him to react that way. Even Kirk in TOS acted more Vulcan about spock's death than new spock in star trek into darkness. the writers need to let new kirk and spock friendship develop on its own in a more organic and original way instead of them forcing their friendship down on us to the point they had to act out TOS kirk and spock.
Kirk's
willingness to die for his crew was the important part of the story arc and the growth of his character. Remember, he bragged to Pike early in the story about how he had never lost a crewman. Now, he had not only lost crewmen, he was having to sacrifice his life for the rest of his crew.
His coming back to life is no worse than us always knowing he'd live through the most dire consequences of every episode because, as they say, he had to be on next week. Unlike with Spock, it just happened in the same movie, not the next one. I don't think anyone at the time thought Spock's death in TWOK would be permanent. We had to wait a while in movie time to know that for sure, but in Trek time, Spock pretty much came back to life the moment his tube landed on the Genesis planet.
As far as Spock's emotions goes and his seeming inability to control them in nuTrek goes, remember what Sarek said and any Trek fan knows, "Emotions run deep within our race. In many ways more deeply than in humans. Logic offers us a serenity humans seldom experience."
Offers, not guarantees. In many ways, logic is both a shield and façade for Vulcans. It can fail or break down. In ST09, Kirk finally got Spock to release all his pent up grief and stress and recognize how hurt he was. Even Spock Prime said he was emotionally compromised.
All the talk about how unbelievable it is because they didn't know each other long enough slays me. I'd really like to hear a convincing argument for why that matters. Those kinds of things (losing someone you realize is very important too soon) don't happen in real life?
Happy for your honest reply but I am not criticising kirk and spock as individuals, I am criticising their friendship because the writers are trying to hard with it. its like the writers are saying...hey this new kirk and spock have an epic friendship like tos kirk and spock and we are going to prove by any means necessary even to the point that they will do the goodbye scene from another classic film we trek fans call the best of the trek film. Lets also have spock cry and scream khan ...you known because he also did that when 6 billion Vulcans died.
History wont be kind to this film. in fact even now the film has faced more criticism than most trek film to the point that the WOK director has slammed the film.
I liked Kirk's journey, I also liked sock's personal joinery although not as much as the first film but then again STID was a Kirk film and trek 2009n was a Spock film.
what I didn't like was the over the top WOK references that the films has ended or been a poor comparison to WOK and also what I didn't like was that Kirk died and was brought back to life. it was not good writing, the khan scream as well was ridiculous , awkward and out of place especially when it was the admiral that was responsible for kirk's death not khan.
And lastly did I mention the other 72 bodies they could have drawn the magic blood from? why did spock have to beat up khan? I guess JJ wanted more action than necessary.
what of the couple in the beginning and their little girl that khan healed what happened to her and them? I will have loved of they played more part in the film.
See why I think the writing of the film is bad?
To be honest, no, no I don't.
The movie establishes a couple of things that I think are important to keep in mind. First, both Kirk's and Spock's arcs that are carrying through from the 09 film in a very really and palatable way-Kirk dealing with his inexperience and Spock with managing his emotions after the loss of Vulcan.
Secondly, McCoy establishes that he does not know if he can thaw any of the other supermen or that their blood would work like Khan's does. If they thawed one of them, and they died, McCoy would be breaking his Hippocratic oath because he knowingly put them at risk with no clear way to save them. Khan would still be the answer then, since he probably was the one who told Marcus how to do it.
As for the little girl at the beginning, yeah, I would have preferred more and that certainly appeared to be the intent in some of the marketing materials. But, she really isn't crucial for the story, other than to establish the stakes. What would you do for your family? Well, time and again, we are shown the individuals are willing to kill for them (Khan, Marcus, Harewood). Kirk, in contrast, is willing to die for his family.
I agree that the WOK references are unnecessary, but WOK is held up as the pinnacle of Trek achievement, so I don't really fault the writers for attempting it. Personally, I think Kirk's sacrifice works well, fits his character arc very well, and provides a personal impact to the loss of life on the Enterprise.
Spock's arc, likewise, is still unfolding. I don't want Quinto to be word for word, action for action, like Nimoy-that's a disservice to both. Young Spock is dealing with emotional turmoil that Prime Spock
never had to deal with. I would find it a more glaring omission on the part of the writers if Spock were not impacted by yet another death on his watch.
Also, perhaps more to the point, this Spock is taking a different path to his reconciling the different halves of himself that Prime Spock ever did. I think
Nerys Myk deals with it more in his post below.
I think you just don't understand Spock well enough. You just know the basics.
I know more than the basics. I have been watching the series for 30 years. Facts are facts NuSpock only lost it over the death of his mom and his entire world when NuKirk provoked him. He lost it much easier and more violently when a guy he knew for one year died. Sorry but it was also inconsistent they way the writers have written NuSpock. NuSpock is written badly and is not nearly the pillar of strength that Prime Spock was and that's counting the Cage when Prime Spock was younger.
30 years....amateur.
I've been watching for nearly 50 years.
Spock is a complex character. There is more to him than logic and "no emotions". When he's the exposition dump character he's pretty boring. Being the "pillar of strength" isn't all that interesting either. ( and is an odd role for Spock in my opinion). Spock works best when he has to confront logic and emotion head on. As he does in most Spockcentric episodes. And usually it's logic that comes up wanting. Which is one of the points of Star Trek. Emotions ( aka humanity) is a good thing.
Spock has lost his mother and his planet. He's found a new home/family on the Enterprise. Now someone has destroyed part of that family. This Spock is still young and not as in control of his emotions. And unlike the Spock from the PR he is more open to emotion. PR Spock would take a longer path to accepting his human half. ( see TMP )
Agreed. Sarek's speech about Spock being the child of two worlds is a moment of reconciliation that Prime Spock would not ever really have with his dad.
Maybe instead of Spock crying at kirks death, then screaming khan and then going on a rampage, they could've toned him down at tad - more accepting/logical/unemotional at the death, a whisper through gritted teeth 'khan' (opposite to trying to out Shatner Shatner, thats what they going for with STID right - opposite?) then have him go after khan (with no "go get him" from uhura - that stuff belongs in a Michael Bay movie) in a more cool/determined/logical/robotic/terminatoresque way - delivering cold logical blows to khan instead of the screaming jumping fistflying spock
Star Trek doesn't do subtle. Everything is over the top and in your face especially TOS.
I'd make the argument that Kirk should have been WAY toned down in TWOK but that just isn't what they do. It's theater and theater is way over the top.
And according to Nick Meyers, some of Shatner's takes were subdued
