Build Up To NuKirks Death Meant Nothing

[TRON JA307020]

The great thing about TWoK was that we had a history with Khan from TOS and we have the friendship of Kirk and Spock that was solidified over 3 seasons and TMP. The death of Spock meant something and was shocking. Also Kirk mourning Spock seemed powerful because of their long friendship. In STID when NuKirk dies and NuSpock Screams Khaaaaaaan it seemed to lack any kind of emotional punch for the audience because there was only a 1 movie relationship with these characters and the scene also was so derivative of the TWoK that it had no emotional weight for the audience whatsoever. Discuss.

 

[JWPlatt]

Agreed. This has been discussed many times before. But the defenders of mediocrity will tell you that while TWOK was about losing an old friend, nuTWOK was about losing the revelation and potential of a new friend. The implication is that the same depth of feeling is present for opposite but equal reasons.

 

[Franklin]

And this has been brought up on the topic before, too, but should be repeated: who's to say length of relationship is important for depth of feeling at the loss of someone? Is that why WWII veterans still get misty-eyed and mourn the deaths of comrades in arms decades later even if back then they had known the guys for only a few weeks or maybe months?

You're really saying that depth of feeling at the loss of someone only correlates with how long you knew the person or how long you were friends? C'mon.

 

[TRON JA307020]

And this has been brought up on the topic before, too, but should be repeated: who's to say length of relationship is important for depth of feeling at the loss of someone? Is that why WWII veterans still get misty-eyed and mourn the deaths of comrades in arms decades later even if back then they had known the guys for only a few weeks or maybe months?

You're really saying that depth of feeling at the loss of someone only correlates with how long you knew the person or how long you were friends? C'mon.

Yes I am. Losing a lifelong friend would hurt more than someone you just met. In STID only a year has gone by maybe less. I just don't buy that NuSpock would have such a emotional outburst like he did after only knowing NuKirk such a short time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And this has been brought up on the topic before, too, but should be repeated: who's to say length of relationship is important for depth of feeling at the loss of someone? Is that why WWII veterans still get misty-eyed and mourn the deaths of comrades in arms decades later even if back then they had known the guys for only a few weeks or maybe months?

You're really saying that depth of feeling at the loss of someone only correlates with how long you knew the person or how long you were friends? C'mon.

Yes I am. Losing a lifelong friend would hurt more than someone you just met. In STID only a year has gone by maybe less. I just don't buy that NuSpock would have such a emotional outburst like he did after only knowing NuKirk such a short time.

How long had Spock known Kirk when he "killed" him in Amok Time?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

And Spock demonstrated fierce loyalty to his captain early on.

 

[Cinema Geekly]

Agreed. This has been discussed many times before. But the defenders of mediocrity will tell you that while TWOK was about losing an old friend, nuTWOK was about losing the revelation and potential of a new friend. The implication is that the same depth of feeling is present for opposite but equal reasons.

I actually agree with what Franklin said.

However, it is not just the revelation of friendship running through Spock's brain at that moment and all this time he has been trying to be a Vulcan about it.

You've got:
Spock since boyhood struggling with his half human/emotional side.

Spock losing his mother

Spock losing his freaking PLANET

Spock losing command of the Enterprise

Spock almost died in the Volcano

Spock literally felt the life drain from Pike and felt what he felt as he died

Spock trying to warn Kirk about teaming up with Khan only for it to lead to that very situation and just as he finally grasps on to the human concept of friendship his first truly best friend dies just inches from his grasp.

I'd say Spock's emotion (what the scene was predicated on) was totally valid given his history.

 

[Franklin]

And this has been brought up on the topic before, too, but should be repeated: who's to say length of relationship is important for depth of feeling at the loss of someone? Is that why WWII veterans still get misty-eyed and mourn the deaths of comrades in arms decades later even if back then they had known the guys for only a few weeks or maybe months?

You're really saying that depth of feeling at the loss of someone only correlates with how long you knew the person or how long you were friends? C'mon.

Yes I am. Losing a lifelong friend would hurt more than someone you just met. In STID only a year has gone by maybe less. I just don't buy that NuSpock would have such a emotional outburst like he did after only knowing NuKirk such a short time.

Wow. You're entitled to your feelings, but trust me, Spock's reaction makes perfect sense if you can at least empathize with those who've lost people they've come to like and really appreciate way too soon. You can become very close to someone in a "crowded minute," and the loss can be devastating.

 

[Taelon]

I've not seen Wrath of Benedict yet, is your thread title a spoiler or does Kirk get better?

 

[Tosk]

I dig how Spock reacts more when some dude who he wasn't really friends with dies than when his mother dies and home planet gets destroyed on the same day.

 

[Cinema Geekly]

I dig how Spock reacts more when some dude who he wasn't really friends with dies than when his mother dies and home planet gets destroyed on the same day.

Spock couldn't sell that. He had to be a MA.....er VULCAN!

 

[M'Sharak]

Agreed. This has been discussed many times before. But the defenders of mediocrity will tell you that while TWOK was about losing an old friend, nuTWOK was about losing the revelation and potential of a new friend. The implication is that the same depth of feeling is present for opposite but equal reasons.

(emphasis mine)

This will probably come as no surprise, but the peevish and completely unnecessary swipe at other posters will earn you a warning. Comments to PM.

 

[TRON JA307020]

And this has been brought up on the topic before, too, but should be repeated: who's to say length of relationship is important for depth of feeling at the loss of someone? Is that why WWII veterans still get misty-eyed and mourn the deaths of comrades in arms decades later even if back then they had known the guys for only a few weeks or maybe months?

You're really saying that depth of feeling at the loss of someone only correlates with how long you knew the person or how long you were friends? C'mon.

Yes I am. Losing a lifelong friend would hurt more than someone you just met. In STID only a year has gone by maybe less. I just don't buy that NuSpock would have such a emotional outburst like he did after only knowing NuKirk such a short time.

How long had Spock known Kirk when he "killed" him in Amok Time?

Probably a few years at that point. Maybe 3 or 4. When TOS starts its clear that Kirk and Spock have known each other for a while. Spocks emotional outburst in Amok Time was attributed to the lingering effects of Pon Far. Also his emotions were not nearly as great as NuSPocks. When Kirk was thought dead in other episodes Spock had little or no emotion. As I have said before NuSpock is overly emotional. Actually more emotional then many humans.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes I am. Losing a lifelong friend would hurt more than someone you just met. In STID only a year has gone by maybe less. I just don't buy that NuSpock would have such a emotional outburst like he did after only knowing NuKirk such a short time.

How long had Spock known Kirk when he "killed" him in Amok Time?

Probably a few years at that point. Maybe 3 or 4. When TOS starts its clear that Kirk and Spock have known each other for a while. Spocks emotional outburst in Amok Time was attributed to the lingering effects of Pon Far. Also his emotions were not nearly as great as NuSPocks. When Kirk was thought dead in other episodes Spock had little or no emotion. As I have said before NuSpock is overly emotional. Actually more emotional then many humans.

I think Spock and Kirk are recent acquaintances at the start of TOS. We know Spock served with Pike for 11 years and "The Cage" took place 13 years ago. So that leaves two years post post Pike for Spock to serve with Kirk. ( assuming there was no CO between Pike and Kirk and Spock was on the Enterprise that whole time)

Speaking of "the Cage", which is closer to the New Trek time frame than TOS proper, Spock is very "emotional" at that time. Smiling and shouting things like "The Women!!!".

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I think we're seeing NuSpock as a being with far different experiences. While much of his backstory remains unchanged, we see him having noticed a certain cadet who clearly opened a door in him. And he hasn't been on with Pike. In the original timeline, he was on the Enterprise with Captain Pike in 2258. Clearly, there was some delay or the Enterprise we saw was the second Constitution class Enterprise as indicated in the comic series. So this Spock hasn't been tempered.

 

[TRON JA307020]

How long had Spock known Kirk when he "killed" him in Amok Time?

Probably a few years at that point. Maybe 3 or 4. When TOS starts its clear that Kirk and Spock have known each other for a while. Spocks emotional outburst in Amok Time was attributed to the lingering effects of Pon Far. Also his emotions were not nearly as great as NuSPocks. When Kirk was thought dead in other episodes Spock had little or no emotion. As I have said before NuSpock is overly emotional. Actually more emotional then many humans.

I think Spock and Kirk are recent acquaintances at the start of TOS. We know Spock served with Pike for 11 years and "The Cage" took place 13 years ago. So that leaves two years post post Pike for Spock to serve with Kirk. ( assuming there was no CO between Pike and Kirk and Spock was on the Enterprise that whole time)

Speaking of "the Cage", which is closer to the New Trek time frame than TOS proper, Spock is very "emotional" at that time. Smiling and shouting things like "The Women!!!".

The small displays of emotion in The Cage do not equal what NuSpock has shown. Not by a long shot. Real Spock had a smile, a shout and really nothing more. NuSpock had had the full range of emotions that dwarf anything we saw in real Spock.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Probably a few years at that point. Maybe 3 or 4. When TOS starts its clear that Kirk and Spock have known each other for a while. Spocks emotional outburst in Amok Time was attributed to the lingering effects of Pon Far. Also his emotions were not nearly as great as NuSPocks. When Kirk was thought dead in other episodes Spock had little or no emotion. As I have said before NuSpock is overly emotional. Actually more emotional then many humans.

I think Spock and Kirk are recent acquaintances at the start of TOS. We know Spock served with Pike for 11 years and "The Cage" took place 13 years ago. So that leaves two years post post Pike for Spock to serve with Kirk. ( assuming there was no CO between Pike and Kirk and Spock was on the Enterprise that whole time)

Speaking of "the Cage", which is closer to the New Trek time frame than TOS proper, Spock is very "emotional" at that time. Smiling and shouting things like "The Women!!!".

The small displays of emotion in The Cage do not equal what NuSpock has shown. Not by a long shot. Real Spock had a smile, a shout and really nothing more. NuSpock had had the full range of emotions that dwarf anything we saw in real Spock.

Well, yes we've only seen Spock at that age in one episode and he's hardly in the same position ( as both a character and an officer) as the Spock in the recent films. "The Cage" was Pike's story. ST09 and STID are much more Spock's story. Spock was a secondary and even tertiary character in "The Cage".

Oh, we've seen a lot of emotion from TOS Spock. He's been sad, angry, violent and passionate. Most Spockcentric episodes are about emotions.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I think Spock and Kirk are recent acquaintances at the start of TOS. We know Spock served with Pike for 11 years and "The Cage" took place 13 years ago. So that leaves two years post post Pike for Spock to serve with Kirk. ( assuming there was no CO between Pike and Kirk and Spock was on the Enterprise that whole time)

Speaking of "the Cage", which is closer to the New Trek time frame than TOS proper, Spock is very "emotional" at that time. Smiling and shouting things like "The Women!!!".

The small displays of emotion in The Cage do not equal what NuSpock has shown. Not by a long shot. Real Spock had a smile, a shout and really nothing more. NuSpock had had the full range of emotions that dwarf anything we saw in real Spock.

Well, yes we've only seen Spock at that age in one episode and he's hardly in the same position ( as both a character and an officer) as the Spock in the recent films. "The Cage" was Pike's story. ST09 and STID are much more Spock's story. Spock was a secondary and even tertiary character in "The Cage".

Oh, we've seen a lot of emotion from TOS Spock. He's been sad, angry, violent and passionate. Most Spockcentric episodes are about emotions.

But most of the time Spocks emotions in the series were due to a outside force of influence. NuSPock just loses it all the time. Even in STID he got jealous and lovesick when Kirk was giving Caol Marcus attention. Real Spock would never have done that.

 

[fireproof78]

Agreed. This has been discussed many times before. But the defenders of mediocrity will tell you that while TWOK was about losing an old friend, nuTWOK was about losing the revelation and potential of a new friend. The implication is that the same depth of feeling is present for opposite but equal reasons.

I actually agree with what Franklin said.

However, it is not just the revelation of friendship running through Spock's brain at that moment and all this time he has been trying to be a Vulcan about it.

You've got:
Spock since boyhood struggling with his half human/emotional side.

Spock losing his mother

Spock losing his freaking PLANET

Spock losing command of the Enterprise

Spock almost died in the Volcano

Spock literally felt the life drain from Pike and felt what he felt as he died

Spock trying to warn Kirk about teaming up with Khan only for it to lead to that very situation and just as he finally grasps on to the human concept of friendship his first truly best friend dies just inches from his grasp.

I'd say Spock's emotion (what the scene was predicated on) was totally valid given his history.

I would like to emphasize this history, which is a history that Prime Spock had not endured, and was not tempered by the relationships he had forged over the years with his crew.

I agree with the rest that people are entitled to their opinion but I do think that Spock's reaction builds upon the arc from 09 and continuing on in to ID, and cannot be extracted from one moment, or the length of time Spock and Kirk have know each other.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The small displays of emotion in The Cage do not equal what NuSpock has shown. Not by a long shot. Real Spock had a smile, a shout and really nothing more. NuSpock had had the full range of emotions that dwarf anything we saw in real Spock.

Well, yes we've only seen Spock at that age in one episode and he's hardly in the same position ( as both a character and an officer) as the Spock in the recent films. "The Cage" was Pike's story. ST09 and STID are much more Spock's story. Spock was a secondary and even tertiary character in "The Cage".

Oh, we've seen a lot of emotion from TOS Spock. He's been sad, angry, violent and passionate. Most Spockcentric episodes are about emotions.

But most of the time Spocks emotions in the series were due to a outside force of influence. NuSPock just loses it all the time. Even in STID he got jealous and lovesick when Kirk was giving Caol Marcus attention. Real Spock would never have done that.

I think you just don't understand Spock well enough. You just know the basics.