Which is yet another reason why the DW sub-forum isn't as enjoyable as it once was. If it isn't Sci lecturing the rest of us it's the constant "let's all pick on Bones" mentality. This place isn't exactly friendly any more.
Bring them Back! Moffat Style..
- Thread starter starsuperion
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Which is yet another reason why the DW sub-forum isn't as enjoyable as it once was. If it isn't Sci lecturing the rest of us it's the constant "let's all pick on Bones" mentality. This place isn't exactly friendly any more.
Agreed whole heartedly.
Any more? This place hasn't been friendly in a long time, and it's just not the pick on Bones people.
I will say this and this alone:
I am not the person who declared he was waiting for someone to appear in the thread and "slag off" fictional characters.
I am not the person who used condescending phrases like, "I don't know why this is so hard to understand" when arguing his point.
I am not the person who decided to make personal insults against other posters.
I am not the person who declared he was waiting for someone to appear in the thread and "slag off" fictional characters.
I am not the person who used condescending phrases like, "I don't know why this is so hard to understand" when arguing his point.
I am not the person who decided to make personal insults against other posters.
Sadly quite true. However, let's get back on topic. That would be the best way to get back to the atmosphere we once enjoyed. If you want to discuss the change in atmosphere and what might be done to correct it, I suggest you take it to the QSF forum.
doctor who fans are nothing if not passionate.. which shows a strong held affection for the show, which bickering aside..
is great for the fandom, and shows how the loyal following of the concept itself will never die, so long as we all exist..
we may not get along on many issues, but we are atleast united in our love of all things Whovian..
Long live the Blue box!
also I know I probably say shit that pisses some of you off, but deep down, I love you all.. no matter our differences..
honestly, outside of this forum, it is difficult to share my passion with others who do not understand nor know much about the programme as the rest of you, so I think that despite our text warfare on occasion, it is important for me to at least acknowledge, that all of you here are brilliant!
is great for the fandom, and shows how the loyal following of the concept itself will never die, so long as we all exist..
we may not get along on many issues, but we are atleast united in our love of all things Whovian..
Long live the Blue box!
also I know I probably say shit that pisses some of you off, but deep down, I love you all.. no matter our differences..
honestly, outside of this forum, it is difficult to share my passion with others who do not understand nor know much about the programme as the rest of you, so I think that despite our text warfare on occasion, it is important for me to at least acknowledge, that all of you here are brilliant!
I think also a big part of why the Time Lords could not track down the TARDIS is because the Doctor's journeys were often very random, especially in the Hartnell and Troughton years. Even when they tracked the Doctor down, he still managed to briefly escape by going to a few places (In the War games) Although it seemed to improve after he regained the TARDIS in the Three Doctors and the early Tom Baker years. Also during the Pertwee and Tom Baker years, he was sort of a licensed renegade, as he did a few missions for the Time Lords.
When the Fourth Doctor installs the randomizer in the Graham Williams-produced era, it's mainly to evade the Black Guardian, a god-like being whose power is probably greater than the time lords. The Black Guardian, in effect, loses track of the Doctor until he eventually removes the randomizer to do some stuff in THE LEISURE HIVE (and two seasons later, the Black Guardian does catch up to him). It's also interesting that in the following serial after LEISURE HIVE that the Doctor also attracts the attention of the Time Lords again, who want Romana back. So I figure there's a similar logic to the random voyages during the black and white years.
So in other words: The Time Lords couldn't find him because his voyages were erratic.
When the Fourth Doctor installs the randomizer in the Graham Williams-produced era, it's mainly to evade the Black Guardian, a god-like being whose power is probably greater than the time lords. The Black Guardian, in effect, loses track of the Doctor until he eventually removes the randomizer to do some stuff in THE LEISURE HIVE (and two seasons later, the Black Guardian does catch up to him). It's also interesting that in the following serial after LEISURE HIVE that the Doctor also attracts the attention of the Time Lords again, who want Romana back. So I figure there's a similar logic to the random voyages during the black and white years.
So in other words: The Time Lords couldn't find him because his voyages were erratic.
I think the Time Lords probably could have tracked down the Doctor anytime they wanted to, heck they could lift his various incarnations out of their respective times!
I think pre Pertwee the Timelords likely couldn't be bothered to track him down, it was too much trouble, but when he asked them for help they couldn't not take him into custardy. You only have to look at their choice of punishment to see what they were thinking. It'd be the equivilent of James Bond going rogue, MI6 catching him but instead of banging him up in prison exiling him to Afghanistan!
I think pre Pertwee the Timelords likely couldn't be bothered to track him down, it was too much trouble, but when he asked them for help they couldn't not take him into custardy. You only have to look at their choice of punishment to see what they were thinking. It'd be the equivilent of James Bond going rogue, MI6 catching him but instead of banging him up in prison exiling him to Afghanistan!
I think that up to the fourth doctor's appearance on Gallifrey, most of the general hierarchy didn't even realise he was not there. In the 3 Doctor's we saw an organisation who was able to meddle in the time line of the Doctor's past..this was something that was expressly objected to by the unknown liason, but the commander of the group was adamant that it needed to be done.
Now between those people, and their uniforms which were mostly black, one could also look to the emergence of the black robed Time Lord by the name of Lord Ferain who appeared to the Fourth Doctor to send him on a mission to avert the birth of the Daleks, or curb their growth...(Genesis of the Daleks). I believe those people in the 3 doctors were the Celestial Intervention Agency or CIA - a secretive Gallifreyan Organisation ... .
With that in mind, it seems logical that the only group who knew of his whereabouts were actually the CIA.. and maybe they were more interested in his actions away from Gallifrey then to scoop him up. Maybe the official whereabouts were kept secret after the War Games situation. In the Deadly Assassin we learn that the Castellan didn't know of the missing type 40 until it arrived on Gallifrey, and when the record was checked in the data computer, it revealed the sentence of the doctor was commuted, and that he was allowed to possess the stolen tardis, per the CIA.
So it seems to me that the Doctor was alowed unofficially to roam about the cosmos, and muck around where tyranny was under way.. but on occasion was directed to do certain things via the CIA..
I also suspect that the CIA was responsible for the Doctor's commuted sentence and the secrecy behind the Doctor's imprisonment on Earth.. In fact if we were to take one of the members of the tribunal (and yeah I know BBC actors regularly appeared in multiple episodes with different names and roles) however, 1 member of the Tribunal was the same who was in the 3 Doctors episode and may have been the chief council member who backed the CIA organisation. that tribunal member was the one who voiced the "1st law of time" lines to the commander of that little group. He was probably more on the political side then the clandestine agency side.. as the other commander was clearly more suited to the bending of the rules..also one of the tribunal members who cleared the doctor was also the same actor who played the evil time lord out to take the presidency for himself..he was the one who shot the doctor in the matrix..
I think that the CIA lobbied for their operative in that tribunal to let the doctor go to Earth as punishment, and thus allowed them to keep him operational without time lord questions around his whereabouts.. it is not said how they came about with their decision, but I think that maybe 2 were for his exile, and the one who wanted him disbursed was the same one who he fought in the matrix years later (deadly assassin)..
on a side note..
If there were any time lords who survived the Time War and existed outside of time-space..or the universe it would have been the CIA. I would love to see a Moffat Epi that depicts the CIA as having developed a Time Lord preservation program secret and seperate of Rassilon's plans.. and thus were able to create a pocket reality of sorts and house them in stasis shielded from the war..maybe like the Ark in space people, or the Kandorians from Superman..that would be a more plausible way to bring the time lords back..and they for the most part would be more sympathetic to the Doctor's meddling, because they themselves backed him and directed him to do so on occasion.
James bond 007 aside.. I am very interested and love the notion of the Time Lord CIA
Now between those people, and their uniforms which were mostly black, one could also look to the emergence of the black robed Time Lord by the name of Lord Ferain who appeared to the Fourth Doctor to send him on a mission to avert the birth of the Daleks, or curb their growth...(Genesis of the Daleks). I believe those people in the 3 doctors were the Celestial Intervention Agency or CIA - a secretive Gallifreyan Organisation ... .
With that in mind, it seems logical that the only group who knew of his whereabouts were actually the CIA.. and maybe they were more interested in his actions away from Gallifrey then to scoop him up. Maybe the official whereabouts were kept secret after the War Games situation. In the Deadly Assassin we learn that the Castellan didn't know of the missing type 40 until it arrived on Gallifrey, and when the record was checked in the data computer, it revealed the sentence of the doctor was commuted, and that he was allowed to possess the stolen tardis, per the CIA.
So it seems to me that the Doctor was alowed unofficially to roam about the cosmos, and muck around where tyranny was under way.. but on occasion was directed to do certain things via the CIA..
I also suspect that the CIA was responsible for the Doctor's commuted sentence and the secrecy behind the Doctor's imprisonment on Earth.. In fact if we were to take one of the members of the tribunal (and yeah I know BBC actors regularly appeared in multiple episodes with different names and roles) however, 1 member of the Tribunal was the same who was in the 3 Doctors episode and may have been the chief council member who backed the CIA organisation. that tribunal member was the one who voiced the "1st law of time" lines to the commander of that little group. He was probably more on the political side then the clandestine agency side.. as the other commander was clearly more suited to the bending of the rules..also one of the tribunal members who cleared the doctor was also the same actor who played the evil time lord out to take the presidency for himself..he was the one who shot the doctor in the matrix..
I think that the CIA lobbied for their operative in that tribunal to let the doctor go to Earth as punishment, and thus allowed them to keep him operational without time lord questions around his whereabouts.. it is not said how they came about with their decision, but I think that maybe 2 were for his exile, and the one who wanted him disbursed was the same one who he fought in the matrix years later (deadly assassin)..
on a side note..
If there were any time lords who survived the Time War and existed outside of time-space..or the universe it would have been the CIA. I would love to see a Moffat Epi that depicts the CIA as having developed a Time Lord preservation program secret and seperate of Rassilon's plans.. and thus were able to create a pocket reality of sorts and house them in stasis shielded from the war..maybe like the Ark in space people, or the Kandorians from Superman..that would be a more plausible way to bring the time lords back..and they for the most part would be more sympathetic to the Doctor's meddling, because they themselves backed him and directed him to do so on occasion.
James bond 007 aside.. I am very interested and love the notion of the Time Lord CIA
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That is it, thanks, been so long since I watched that special, I had forgotten the title of that character and wasn't sure.
The CIA were an interesting part of Timelord society, ironically I see them as a Gallifreyan 'Cult of Skaro' or even Section 31.
Although the Timelords have a policy of non-interferance, the CIA would have no qualms about doing so, using 'renegades' such as The Doctor to keep their gloves clean and Timelord society at large in the dark.
I agree the CIA may have found a way to preserve some aspect of Timelord society, especially considering Rassilon's return and the more militarist Gallifrey we saw in 'The End of Time'.
Although the Timelords have a policy of non-interferance, the CIA would have no qualms about doing so, using 'renegades' such as The Doctor to keep their gloves clean and Timelord society at large in the dark.
I agree the CIA may have found a way to preserve some aspect of Timelord society, especially considering Rassilon's return and the more militarist Gallifrey we saw in 'The End of Time'.
My point was that the focus should be on the characters of the revival, not the desiccated remains of the old and tired DW history. The Time Lords worked in 'The End of Time' because they were the baddies and could have been fairly easily interchanged with another galaxy-ending crisis. Bringing them back as the stodgy equivalent to Trek's Q Continuum is shockingly unappealing.
What? They get a one-line mention!
Actually I beg to differ..
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Celestial_Intervention_Agency
taken from the wiki
Celestial Intervention Agency or CIA was a secretive Gallifreyan organisation dedicated to selectively breaking the non-interference policy of the Time Lords.
History
Origins and nature
The CIA were a group created to be a covert arm of the High Council to safeguard the Time Lords' interests. (DW: Shada) They evolved from a core group of Rassilon's guards. (NA: Lungbarrow) They would function as spies. It was said that they "don't even know which side they're on." (BFG: Mindbomb).
CIA's involvement with the Doctor
The CIA initially employed the Second Doctor to work for them, ironically, following his trial for breaking the non-interference policy. The Doctor reluctantly agreed to go on a mission with the Time Lady Serena against the Players. (PDA: World Game) After the completion of that mission, and Serena's death, he was assigned to go with Jamie McCrimmon at his side to Space Station Chimera to speak with Dastari and persuade him to discontinue his time travel experiments. (PDA: World Game, DW: The Two Doctors)
The Third Doctor, now made to regenerate against his will, was exiled to Earth. (DW: Spearhead from Space onward) Though this remains speculative, it seems very possible that the CIA sent the Third Doctor to Uxarieus to prevent the Master from obtaining the Doomsday Weapon. (DW: Colony in Space), to Peladon to assist in its joining the Galactic Federation. (DW: The Curse of Peladon) and to Solos in the 30th century to deliver a package from the Time Lords. (DW: The Mutants)'
The Third Doctor was given a reprieve following his defeat of Omega. (DW: The Three Doctors) However, even then the Time Lords would continue to use him as an agent.
It was a Time Lord by the name of Lord Ferain who appeared to the Fourth Doctor to send him on a mission to Skaro to avert the creation of the Daleks. (DW: Genesis of the Daleks)
This action would, incidentally, in retrospect, count as the first pre-emptive salvo of the Last Great Time War. The Doctor suspected that the Time Lords (and therefore probably the CIA) sent him to Karn to prevent ex-Gallifreyan president Morbius from being resurrected and returned to body by Dr. Mehendri Solon (DW: The Brain of Morbius).
Possibly, the Sisterhood of Karn itself had brought the Doctor to Karn. The Doctor seems quite sure that it was the Time Lords, however. The Sixth Doctor also suspected the Time Lords of using him to try to stop the Cybermen from altering history by destroying Earth in 1985. (DW: Attack of the Cybermen)
When Co-ordinator Vansell of the CIA, saw that the Doctor's actions had allowed the Nestene Consciousness to escape destruction, he saw to it that a trial for him would take place on Space Station Zenobia. (PDA: Synthespians™) After the transportationof the Doctor's TARDIS to the space station (DW: The Trial of a Time Lord: The Mysterious Planet) and the presentation of evidence (DW: The Trial of a Time Lord: The Mysterious Planet, DW: Mindwarp, DW: Terror of the Vervoids), the trial would conclude with the Doctor's prosecutor, the Valeyard, exposed as the Doctor's own corrupt future self, the Doctor exonerated and political unrest on Gallifrey. (DW: The Trial of a Time Lord: The Ultimate Foe)
Within the context of The Trial of a Time Lord, the High Council had put the Doctor on trial to cover up that they have inadvertently allowed the Matrix to be compromised and some of its secrets stolen - the results of which the Doctor had run into during The Mysterious Planet and Mindwarp.
Other projects and missions
The CIA sent a Time Lord as their agent to Apertsu to serve as a security consultant; however, he was captured by Aubertides who wanted the secret of regeneration. (NA: Human Nature) The CIA began to fear the number of temporally active races, so they began experimenting with various temporal technologies, including the TARDISes, in an attempt to move the minds of (newly created) TARDISes within the minds of aliens taken from over 50 planets. Time Lady Professor Klyst oversaw this experiment. (BFA: Unregenerate!)
The CIA and The War
President Romana sent the CIA agents Gandarotethetledrax and Cavisadoratrelundar to observe/create the first Type 102 TARDIS (knowing that it would be a vital piece of technology in the upcoming war), and witnessed the former Remote agent Compassion complete a transition to a sentient TARDIS. They were halted by the people of the Catuvalani. The Eighth Doctor escaped with the Type 102 TARDIS. (EDA: The Shadows of Avalon)
At some point in the lead-up to The War, the CIA became worried that they might be erased from history (or caught in the crossfire
Leadership
- Centris was head of the CIA for a time before discovering how many people she had sent to the Oubliette of Eternity. Upon discovering the number, she threw herself into it. (BFA: Neverland)
- Coordinator Vansell was head of the CIA during Romana's presidency until he encountered the Neverpeople. (BFA: Neverland)
- Coordinator Narvin took over as head of the CIA following Vansell's death aboard the time station. (BFA: Neverland)
Known CIA Personnel
Higher-ups
- Coordinator Centris
- Coordinator Vansell
- Coordinator Narvin
- Director of Allegiance Ferain
- The Voice of the Agency
- President Niroc
Agents
Reluctant agent from second incarnation through sixth incarnations
CIA Assets
- The CIA developed psychic paper technology. (PDA: World Game)
- Space Station Zenobia (the location of the the Sixth Doctor's trial) was the property of the CIA. (EDA: The Eight Doctors)
- The Oubliette of Eternity a device which was supposed to remove people from history, but instead made them Neverpeople. (BFA: Neverland)
- They possessed a Vortex Ops unit which scanned the Time Vortex for any anomalies. (BFA: Weapon of Choice)
Behind the scenes
- Doctor Who writer and Script Editor Robert Holmes introduced the CIA in the "revisionist" story The Deadly Assassin, in order to address the contradiction between the Time Lord's non-interference policy and the Doctor having gone on missions for them. According to Holmes, then, all of the Doctor's previous missions took place on behalf of the CIA.
- He used the acronym CIA as a reference to the Central Intelligence Agency, which in the real world would engage in covert activities outside of US soil while also maintaining "plausible deniability". He conceived of the Time Lords as corrupt and maintained that they worked in the same way.
Indeed. The books and audios don't count as canon (for whatever canon is worth) and I know plenty of fans that have never read a DW novel or listened to an audio from BF.
