Braga throws suits under the bus

[star]

My friend, you are close to stating your personal opinion as fact. You don't think TaTV is as bad as others (like myself do).

I suppose I ought to amend that I think they botched that episode. But I'm pretty sure in my post above I mentioned something about it being my opinion that B&B might not have created a better show had they been given more freedom because I feel they royaly screwed up wrapping up the series with said freedom.

But we don't have to see eye to eye. Just a friendly debate of personal preferences.

IDIC, baby!

 

[number6]

TATV wasn't nearly as bad as people around here would have you believe, but even Braga said the idea wasn't executed well, either because of sloppy writing or because B&B just kind of threw up their hands and said "fuck it".

Either way people don't realise the level of interference from the network was worse than when they had two shows in syndication. UPN kept changing their programming in an attempt to find a demographic. They were the ones who insisted on having Star Trek in the title so the the viewer would know they were watching Star Trek.
Its disingenuous to point to a lackluster finale to argue the quality of the writing of the show. Braga and Berman wrote some great episodes for the series and had some great ideas for the show in general.

 

[Alrik]

People keep saying it was all Manny Coto who fixed the show. Again this is lack of research: What happened was that there was also a change of management at UPN, and the new managers took a backseat to the show's development because they weren't as concerned as the prior ones were. Coto simply got the freedom B&B never got.

Don't forget. A large part of Ent's demise was due to the fact that UPN pulled syndication in order to use Ent as the 'Anchor' to build their network on. Sure the ratings were so-so seasons 1 & 2, but when they went pretty much completely in house season 3, that was the beging of the end. I remember having to call my dish provider and then having to pay extra each month just so I could get UPN. I'm sure there were plenty of casual viewers that just let it go because they didn't want the extra hassle or expense.

 

[Anwar]

Sad thing is, if Voyager and Enterprise had aired in the present day we'd have full online access to the staff to let us know that UPN was behind all the bad stuff and B&B wouldn't have become the scapegoats they are while Ron Moore would never be able to get away with that crazy rant of his. Though that's changing nowadays.

 

[Jax]

"These are the Voyages" wasn't half as bad as everyone thinks it is. If it had just been some random middle-of-the-season episode no one would've cared. Being the finale, IE rotten timing, was most of the problem.

No the episode was horrible and I say this a ENT lover and great defender of Trek. TATV was simply horrible and is easily, one of the worst TREK episodes of all time.

 

[Kirby]

I've heard plenty of writers complain that TV executives like to make changes that make the episodes and story arcs suck, so this may be the case, but then again I can look at something I did 5 years ago and figure out how to make it better.

 

[Malleus]

Either way people don't realise the level of interference from the network was worse than when they had two shows in syndication. UPN kept changing their programming in an attempt to find a demographic.

The original sin of UPN was when it cancelled shows after only 13 episodes in its very first year, 1995.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The trip to Qo'nos should have lasted the entire first season. A Klingon, A Vulcan and a human crew out in the middle of nowhere. When they're just about there, something goes disastrously wrong. Klingons pissed. Enterprise escapes by the skin of their teeth.

 

[I am not Spock]

People keep saying it was all Manny Coto who fixed the show. Again this is lack of research: What happened was that there was also a change of management at UPN, and the new managers took a backseat to the show's development because they weren't as concerned as the prior ones were. Coto simply got the freedom B&B never got.

Don't forget. A large part of Ent's demise was due to the fact that UPN pulled syndication in order to use Ent as the 'Anchor' to build their network on. Sure the ratings were so-so seasons 1 & 2, but when they went pretty much completely in house season 3, that was the beging of the end. I remember having to call my dish provider and then having to pay extra each month just so I could get UPN. I'm sure there were plenty of casual viewers that just let it go because they didn't want the extra hassle or expense.

I think the suits already knew they were gonna pull the plug on ENT by the end of season three. They only gave us Season 4 because they wanted enough episodes for a syndication package. Therefore, they figured they would step back and let Manny do whatever he wanted in the fourth year. I'm just glad they didn't end the show at the end of s3. Imagine Zero Hour being the last episode, with the same cliffhanger? You'd have a lot of very mad Trekkies!

 

[number6]

"These are the Voyages" wasn't half as bad as everyone thinks it is. If it had just been some random middle-of-the-season episode no one would've cared. Being the finale, IE rotten timing, was most of the problem.

No the episode was horrible and I say this a ENT lover and great defender of Trek. TATV was simply horrible and is easily, one of the worst TREK episodes of all time.

No. That honor goes to TOS: The Way to Eden.
TNG: Shades of Grey, Dark Page, Sub Rosa, Masks
DS9: Fascination, Let He Who is Without Sin
VOY: Heroes and Demons, Initiations, Tattoo, The Q and the Grey, Alter Ego, 11:59, Virtuoso, Nightingale
ENT: Precious Cargo.

All of these make TATV look like City on the Edge of Forever.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

"These are the Voyages" wasn't half as bad as everyone thinks it is. If it had just been some random middle-of-the-season episode no one would've cared. Being the finale, IE rotten timing, was most of the problem.

No the episode was horrible and I say this a ENT lover and great defender of Trek. TATV was simply horrible and is easily, one of the worst TREK episodes of all time.

No. That honor goes to TOS: The Way to Eden.
TNG: Shades of Grey, Dark Page, Sub Rosa, Masks
DS9: Fascination, Let He Who is Without Sin
VOY: Heroes and Demons, Initiations, Tattoo, The Q and the Grey, Alter Ego, 11:59, Virtuoso, Nightingale
ENT: Precious Cargo.

All of these make TATV look like City on the Edge of Forever.

Correct (except about Fascination, which is a work of genius). TATV is hated because it's a terrible finale - as an episode it's only mediocre.

 

[number6]

I don't really hate it..

Terra Prime was the finale for ENT. TATV was intended to be more of a coda, to give the series some kind of historical context. Taken as such TATV doesn't really bug me, but as a fan of the show I never saw the need to elevate it as some kind of higher art form. Star Trek really has never been that..It has only been taken to that level by those zealots who feel the need to pick apart every little detail and suck all the fun out of thse shows by overthinking and projecting their own insecurities into the process..Star Trek's own message has always managed to stay above the petty nitpicking of this scene or that scene. All the shows had some shining moments that define them as a Star Trek show. Conversely all the shows had some less than stellar moments. ENT is certainly no exception. Calling TATV the worst of all time is simply hyperbole and without any real merit, because it simply isn't true.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Calling TATV the worst of all time is simply hyperbole and without any real merit, because it simply isn't true.

...In your opinion. There are others who do consider TATV the worst Trek episode, and they have their reasons, and they're entitled to their opinion, just as you are. This isn't about whose opinion is the only "correct" one; there's no such thing.

We all have perspectives that are unique to us. We love or hate shows for our own reasons, based on our own personal standards of goodness and badness...in other words, whether or not we found the episode satisfying. It can be about story structure, character development, acting, production values, whatever. But any opinion is valid to the one who holds it.

 

[number6]

Sure, in my opinion, but there are plenty of Trek episodes that are far far worse. I listed a couple upthread and will certainly entertain any thoughts on how or why TATV is worse than any of them.

Considering how many TATV SUXXXXX threads this forum hosts, I can certainly see your point, but for the most part it is pretty silly to still be that angry about it. It just wasn't that big of a deal.

IMO, of course.

 

[Mach5]

It just wasn't that big of a deal.

Depends on how much you cared for the show. The most loyal fans who were passionate about Enterprise back in the day do consider it a big deal, even now.

Most occasional viewers never cared at all, while haters seem to like it (for whatever reason).

Some of us, on the other hand, are aware that clinging to that disappointment and resentment is getting kinda pathetic...

 

[number6]

I cared about the show a great deal. I'm this BBS biggest defender of ANIS and I started the Cute Cuddly Alien Space Nazi Summer of Love. There is nothing that justifies the blind hatred that graces this board on a daily basis. It is irrational and unhealthy.

 

[mswood]

People need to understand a few basic things.

TNG and DS9 were independent studio productions. Meaning the only people they had to please was Paramount Television. And yes those shows had their fair share of management mandates. TNG had the least because for most of its run the shows ratings increased. With success you tend to get a little more leeway. With DS9 as the ratings dropped (and they dropped a lot % wise nearly identical season for season as VOY or ENT they just started far, far higher) they got more and more feedback on what they could and couldn't do.

Voyager and Enterprise not only ad to deal with Studio management but also network management, adding a whole additional layer of people who decide what can and can't be done. And in addition to that both shows were considered the tent poles (at least on conception) for the network, meaning the network execs showed more interest (read interference) then they would have for any other programming they had at the time.

Now sometimes studio/network advise (orders) can actually be good moves, but more often then not they limit the creative reach of writers.

Much of what Brannon has stated as been mentioned by him in various interviews, some even during the production of the show.

The writers of DS9 (after the Worf overall) mention that they got a far less pressure and restrictions then Voyager.

Now of course, just because a studio/network tells you things you must do and things you can't, that doesn't mean storytellers don't also make terrible choices as well. Probably my single biggest problem with ENT was something the writers did have a lot of say over and that was the characters. For the most part even though I could really relate to the type of characters they had (they seemed fairly believable to me) they were for the most part uninteresting.

For the most part the Tech didn't bother me. After all the tech between TOS and TNG was nearly identical (in fact far closer the ENT to TOS and with about the same amount of time between them). But having a cast (and some of the actors are good, so it wasn't just a casting issue) that for the most part bored me hurt me far more then any other aspect of the show. And it wasn't lack of growth those first two years and a lot of growth for the actors, all of them in fact (far more then VOY, TNG or TOS had), but Again I didn't care about them.

A few things I do want to say that they did better then any Trek show. THe wonder of seeing something for the first time. No trek show has ever done it as well, or the horror or fear of the unknown. Again something no other Trek show has managed as well. The design of the show. I loved the look of the show, easily my favorite production. From costumes to sets, just adored the look of the show. The other thing they did better then any Trek series (modern) was in keeping up with changes in how shows are paced, and shot. Braga started this with Voyager but really was able to push things closer to currently being produced shows of that time with Enterprise.

 

[AMQ]

For me it will always be a big of a deal... I could live with not having all 7 seasons but I can't be ok with TATV...
The worst episode ever. In my opinion.
It left me really sad and shocked and angry, which I can't remember I've ever been because of any show. Still makes me all of that when I think about it.
There's no any hate, though. Just disappointment.

I can leave that behind - as there's no way of changing it - but will never think it was good or fair end of series.

 

[mswood]

It just wasn't that big of a deal.

Depends on how much you cared for the show. The most loyal fans who were passionate about Enterprise back in the day do consider it a big deal, even now.

Most occasional viewers never cared at all, while haters seem to like it (for whatever reason).

Some of us, on the other hand, are aware that clinging to that disappointment and resentment is getting kinda pathetic...

Frankly it all depends on the individual not in how big of fan they were of the show. But my personal mindset in judging episodes is almost always an episode is an episode. I disliked TATV, but I thought many episodes of Trek were worse. Hell I thought Bound was worse, and that was just three episodes earlier. I hate that episode.

Even in a heavily serialized show like Lost I don't judge the finale as more then just one episode.

My biggest problem with TATV was that I actually liked the concept (the idea of using a future setting, to tell a story about Enterprise and its significance to Trek's history), but its execution was all over the place (some elements I really enjoyed some I utterly hated). It wasn't an episode, say like Twisted, where I hate the concept, I hate the execution, in fact I think I hated everything about that episode.

 

[DevilEyes]

"These are the Voyages" wasn't half as bad as everyone thinks it is. If it had just been some random middle-of-the-season episode no one would've cared. Being the finale, IE rotten timing, was most of the problem.

No the episode was horrible and I say this a ENT lover and great defender of Trek. TATV was simply horrible and is easily, one of the worst TREK episodes of all time.

No. That honor goes to TOS: The Way to Eden.
TNG: Shades of Grey, Dark Page, Sub Rosa, Masks
DS9: Fascination, Let He Who is Without Sin
VOY: Heroes and Demons, Initiations, Tattoo, The Q and the Grey, Alter Ego, 11:59, Virtuoso, Nightingale
ENT: Precious Cargo.

All of these make TATV look like City on the Edge of Forever.

What's so bad about 11:59?

IMO Mudd's Women, The Omega Glory, Code of Honor, Angel One, The Last Outpost, Up the Long Ladder, Threshold, Fair Haven, Spirit Folk, Acquisition, Extinction, Bound, should be there.

I agree about Fascination and Precious Cargo, though. Rubbish episodes.

But none of these make TATV look like COTEOF (and that despite my opinion that COTEOF is overrated), because TATV is still an awful episode.