• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Borg and Trek Weaponry

You keep describing it as an energy absorber, even though there's nothing to suggest it's that instead of an energy shield. If it's a shield, it should be able to protect itself from bullets. The Borg probably hadn't encountered bullets (or holographic bullets) since they had learned how to adapt to personal weapons fire. That's why they were killed by Picard there. It doesn't seem to make sense that the Borg are weak to 24th century technology, but 20th century technology works easily.
 
You keep describing it as an energy absorber, even though there's nothing to suggest it's that instead of an energy shield. If it's a shield, it should be able to protect itself from bullets. The Borg probably hadn't encountered bullets (or holographic bullets) since they had learned how to adapt to personal weapons fire. That's why they were killed by Picard there. It doesn't seem to make sense that the Borg are weak to 24th century technology, but 20th century technology works easily.

Enterprise, as well as a few episodes of Voyager, explored the technology behind the drone's shielding and every time it's referred to, it's in terms of it being solely an energy shield.

Also, if the drones really could adapt to any form of attack, physical or energy, then hand-to-hand combat against any drone would be useless right off, since they would have adapted to such a form of attack hundreds of years ago - yet in every episiode of Trek, once they adapt to phasers and whatnot, the crew members always resort to hand-to-hand combat and it works every time. Data snapped a drone's neck, Worf fought about a dozen with a sword, Archer started unplugging a drone's wires and cables in its head, etc. No doubt the Borg have been engaged in physical hand-to-hand combat before, and certainly some drones have been killed in hand-to-hand combat, yet they never adapted to counteract physical damage, only energy damage.

Therefore, they don't adapt to physical attacks - that much is a consistant truth in every episode of Trek that involves the Borg. Since guns work on the exact same principle as hand-to-hand combat (where one object collides with another and results in the collided object being damaged), then there's no reason why they couldn't be used successfully against the Borg.
 
Last edited:
The Borg in Q Who must have been a freak, or a special case, because the force field that was in operation was never used again.

You don’t seem to realize that all Borg are freaks. They adapt differently in different situations; they most certainly portray resilience towards phasers and other such kinetic attacks in later episodes as well, even if the faceted shield becomes interchangeable with other shapes and types of forcefield (a skintight effect is seen in ST:FC).

If the Borg truly could adapt to anything under the sun, they would long be immune to melee attacks before the events of ST:FC, or any sort of physical harm.

But that argument would also apply to phasers, which are not “new under the sun”. Phaser-type weapons are standard fare in the Trek universe, and no doubt the concept is millennia old, and possibly millions or even billions of years old. Indeed, it most probably predates the birth of the Collective. Yet the Borg adapt to phasers anew every time, the first few Drones succumbing to this weaponry, but the next few not. This holds true throughout TNG and VOY, so we see onscreen that adaptations don’t “stick”.

Which only makes sense. During all those millennia, the Borg must have adapted to a great variety of threats. It would be an unholy burden for them to carry adaptations to all those threats all the time – and a much more practical approach to never travel pre-adapted. After all, the loss of a Drone or three is no loss, apparently not even to the Drones themselves since they remain part of the Collective after physical death (as Seven’s assorted ramblings in VOY suggest).

Also, your assertation that phasers are superior because they don't kick is idiotic - light, or energy, is not a physical force and does not "kick."

Wrong on two counts. First, light most definitely “kicks” – photons carry momentum, and indeed this is why DS9 “Explorers” is basically valid science fiction even if a sailing ship in space looks like pure fantasy on the first sight. Second, it is downright idiotic to claim in face of onscreen evidence that phaser beams should be comparable to flashlight beams. From what we clearly see, a phaser beam hits like an anti-tank rifle. If one wants to interpret this as the phaser beam being a jet of massive particles, one can freely do so, as nothing to the contrary is ever claimed. But such simplistic explanations do not do justice to the fact that we don’t know what a phaser beam really is. We do know how it behaves, though, which makes the preceding arguments valid.[

It is patently childish to pretend that phasers would be of a certain well-defined nature just because one has enough of a gun fetish to understand the well-defined nature of that other weapon type. The weaknesses and strengths of phasers cannot be derived from application of self-imagined operating principles, but must instead be deduced from onscreen evidence. If the positions were reversed, I would be attributing projectile guns with weaknesses like “can only work in vacuum, because you don’t seem to understand the basic principles of air resistance” or “cannot penetrate armor because two solid objects cannot exist in the same place”… Seemingly rational arguments, but ignorant of the full extent of the physical laws and the whole body of evidence.

But Phasers are not more powerful than projectile weapons because of this - look at the aftermath of fights in any Trek episodes - the walls have a few scorch marks, but nothing more.

So not only are phasers demonstrably more powerful than projectile guns in their intended job, they also are environmentally friendlier! :p

Why don't the Borg get kicked back when shot by phasers? Because their suit absorbs it whole…

Possibly. And if the suit can do that, then it can obviously also absorb a round from a .50 cal rifle, at least in terms of the kinetic energy delivered. So trying the Tommy-gun again would be rather futile.

No doubt the Borg have been engaged in physical hand-to-hand combat before, and certainly some drones have been killed in hand-to-hand combat, yet they never adapted to counteract physical damage, only energy damage.

Yet nobody has defeated the Borg by killing them in hand-to-hand. The meager losses we see do not really exceed those preceding ones from phasers: the Borg ultimately triumph anyway, by swarming the hand-to-hand fighters in a form of tactical adaptation.

In general terms, one might argue that personal shields that resist slow kinetic attack (that is, swords and fists) impede movement and handling of objects, which is why Federation troopers don’t use those. The Borg would no doubt have somewhat more refined systems, though. But whatever the technological reality, the onscreen/tactical reality remains that there is no evidence of an inability to adapt to bullets, only of unwillingness to adapt to bullets, or phaser beams, or transporters, or hyposprays, or any other type of threat before that threat becomes acute. And of willingless to drop those adaptations once the threat has passed.

Since guns work on the exact same principle as hand-to-hand combat

Again, we know zip about the principle on which phasers operate, but we see enough to recognize that phaser beams have a component that functions in a manner similar to a kinetic attack. That attack is repulsed by Borg countermeasures, leaving little reason to think a bullet attack wouldn’t be repulsed in a similar manner.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Jesus Christ.. you are arguing for ages just because different scriptwriter adapted Borg Tech to suit their story.

In one instance the Borg activates his shields and nobody can even touch him.. in other instances a member of the same race with the same technology (even a couple of years later which means further technological advances) can be attacked in close combat and clubbed/hit/knifed down.

There IS no consistency.. especially in Trek where writers can technobbabble to no end to suddenly make something possible where it was established in a previous episode that it can't (for dramatic reasons because the plot would be over in 10 minutes).
 
Borg drones cannot ignore the laws of physics. The guns we have today can shred metal structures to bits and pieces in seconds - to say that a Borg drone's armor can withstand any artillary thrown at it is idiotic. True, the armor a drone has can make it a tough nut to crack, but given enough punishment, a drone will die. A little metal plating doesn't make you invincible. There is no such thing as "bullet proof," only degrees of resistance to conventional firearms any given object can handle - if you let loose on a drone with, say, an M-60 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun), it's eventually going to die. No amount of armor can prevent the sheer physical force of hundreds of very large bullets from tearing off limbs, legs, tearing apart metal, etc. There's also a little thing called armor-piercing rounds, specifically designed to cut through and render armor useless.

Well, since this is all speculative fiction, allow me to speculate more.

The Borg drone produces nanoprobes.

These nanoprobes repair the drone as well as provide for assimilation.

With these nanoprobes, the Borg drone could just create ablative armor in response to a kinetic energy weapon. This just creates a milkshake problem, but there are plenty of those already.
 
I haven't read all that's been said here but has anyone mention that's it part of the Federations credo to make weapons that are meant to be non-lethal? Federation weaponary are designed to defend, killing is only a very last resort. The Federation still sees the Borg as life forms. The Enterprise crew tried to "save" Hugh, The Voyager crew tried to save Seven & the Borg kids.
 
let's get this straight - the borg can produce transwarp conduits that allow them to move many times faster than normal warp and also have the facility to travel in time. Yet, being able to adapt to conventional projectile weapons is a skill that's beyond them? :rolleyes:


So all we need is a TV special called Star Trek:yee-haa! where Star Fleet travels in time and recruits billy the kid and Jonah Hex to blow holes in the borg.....
 
let's get this straight - the borg can produce transwarp conduits that allow them to move many times faster than normal warp and also have the facility to travel in time. Yet, being able to adapt to conventional projectile weapons is a skill that's beyond them? :rolleyes:
Yeah but the Borg don't think outside the box either. They're beings of modern technology. Nobody uses projectile weapons in Trek's time and those that do are of no interest too the Borg, so they wouldn't have the assimilated knowledge to defend against it. The Borg discard old outdated information from within the collective inorder to keep ahead of the times.

Besides, no personal sheild is going to stop a projectile weapon from knocking you on your ass. Even if their sheilds held, they be knocked back over a dozen feet before the impact of landing. Nothing even partly organic would survive that.


It's the story of David & Goliath. Nobody could phyically stop Goliath, so they never suspected a simple rock could take him down.
 
Last edited:
The Borg discard old outdated information from within the collective inorder to keep ahead of the times.

and this has been stated where?


Is this a late april fools thread?
No.:lol:

Actually Seven of Nine implied it in "Dragon's Teeth". She mention that events of several decades long passed is sketchy within the collective.

Even beings like Data or the EMH have limited capacity to hold information for that extend period of time.
 
I haven't read all that's been said here but has anyone mention that's it part of the Federations credo to make weapons that are meant to be non-lethal? Federation weaponary are designed to defend, killing is only a very last resort. The Federation still sees the Borg as life forms. The Enterprise crew tried to "save" Hugh, The Voyager crew tried to save Seven & the Borg kids.

Well, they tried to stun a Borg in Q-Who, it had no effect. After that, they've always shot to kill.

It's the story of David & Goliath. Nobody could phyically stop Goliath, so they never suspected a simple rock could take him down.

That always bugged me about David and Goliath. Slingers were one of the best skirmishers in the ancient world. Often they'd use little round clay balls, but rocks did work as well. They also gained tremendous velocity before impact. Getting hit by a sling is comparable to getting shot (so, I guess, in this thread, it would be an effective Borg weapon ;) ). It should have been obvious that it would be more effective than a sword at bringing down a giant. It wasn't the least likely way to bring him down, it was the most likely.
 
...OTOH, a sling is a ranged weapon that is at a disadvantage when the opponent is within an arm's reach. David would have needed lots of agility and speed to hit his opponent before he reached and crushed the slingsman, especially if the two started out at an artificially imposed dueling range.

Besides, no personal sheild is going to stop a projectile weapon from knocking you on your ass. Even if their sheilds held, they be knocked back over a dozen feet before the impact of landing.

That would depend on where the shield couples. Is it the body of the wearer? Or is it the environment? The subspace matrix? Say, police raid shields today are intended to be braced against walls or floors whenever possible, to reduce the impact. Borg shields could employ all sorts of invisible anchoring systems to redistribute the momentum of the hit, since such systems are a logical outgrowth of confirmed Trek technologies.

A more troublesome equation is the riot shield seen in ST5:TFF. It is a truly delightful scifi technology: a rollable, transparent protection against bullets that doesn't seem to feature any moving parts or power requirements, and appears to be highly effective. The big question is, how does it redistribute the momentum of the hit without breaking every bone in the wearer's arm? The answer could lie in materials technology, as the shield could be constructed to be flexible so that the bullet is slowed down across a distance of a couple of centimeters, enough to reduce the force of a single hit to muscle-manageable levels.

Borg skin could employ similar materials - but as the Tommy-gun example shows, it apparently doesn't, at least not until the Borg adapt. Yet surely they could adapt in terms of altering their physical structure, just as readily as they could alter the settings of their shields or other such devices. Nanotech should indeed allow for that.

Actually Seven of Nine implied it in "Dragon's Teeth". She mention that events of several decades long passed is sketchy within the collective.

To be sure, the dialogue makes it sound as if the Borg had not yet formed the familiar, efficient Collective those centuries (not decades) ago. Nothing hints at an inability to remember details from more recent times, and indeed Seven amazingly seems to enjoy an almost unlimited access to all accumulated Borg information , recent and ancient, despite being severed from the Collective.

Seven: "The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary."

and

Gedrin: "The Borg? In my century they'd only assimilated a handful of systems. It looks like they've spread through the quadrant like a plague. No offense."

Of course, this is in contrast with Q's and Guinan's original insistence that the Borg are hundreds of millennia old. But it could just be that they have changed their modus operandi in the recent centuries, or that they have only recently shown an interest in the Delta Quadrant, having spent the original millennia elsewhere. Or, rather, that the Borg work cyclically, coming to harvest after letting parts of the galaxy fallow for a while (as they do on a shorter timescale in "Child's Play").

Timo Saloniemi
 
You're really over thinking the whole thing way, way too much.
You're speculating ideas and concepts that have never even been shown in any Trek show.
 
That always bugged me about David and Goliath. Slingers were one of the best skirmishers in the ancient world. Often they'd use little round clay balls, but rocks did work as well. They also gained tremendous velocity before impact. Getting hit by a sling is comparable to getting shot (so, I guess, in this thread, it would be an effective Borg weapon ;) ). It should have been obvious that it would be more effective than a sword at bringing down a giant. It wasn't the least likely way to bring him down, it was the most likely.

It's possible, even likely, that the Philistines, understanding the value of Goliath as a champion (and knowing the blow to morale his death in battle would be), kept him in reserve—away from the front until individual challenges were given and received. During a clash between armies, one cannot see and shield against everyone; slingers and bowmen would have certainly set their sights on Goliath as a notable kill. Thus, the understandable caution in deploying him casually.

When David stepped forth to fight the giant in single combat, though, all Goliath would have had to do was keep a good-sized shield before him as he approached, and sling stones would have been largely ineffectual. A competent warrior could easily gauge a slinger's release and duck behind its protection in that moment.

If we're to take the account in 1 Samuel literally, I think one has to assume either that Goliath arrogantly came forth without a shield because David seemed an inoffensive shepherd boy (highly unlikely in a seasoned combatant who knows anything about slings), David got in an amazingly lucky shot (possible, but also not very probable) ... or that his was, in that moment, the hand of God.
 
:lol::lol:

I love this board.. talking about highly advanced cyborgs vs. old school weapons and then switching to battle tactic discussions about a biblical fight
 
This topic has brought one question to my mind:

There has to be some tipping point to the Borg's ability to adapt to weapons. Say the Enterprise E was above a planet that had a crashed Borg scout ship on it. About 5 Borg (taking the number of Borg on the scout ship in I, Borg) are attacking the planets populace. With an away team providing exact targeting coordinates, wouldn't the ship's main phasers be powerful enough to overpower any adaptation a single drone could withstand?

On a larger scale, a race whose weapons could generate energy amounts that dwarf anything the Federation could produce, couldn't that be enough to destroy a Borg ship despite any adaptations the Collective makes?

We've seen that the destruction of a planet, or a solar flare, can destroy a Borg Cube. Are these amounts of energy within the Borg's ability to adapt?

If there is a tipping point, is that tipping point movable? Meaning that after enough study, or the assimilation of a disabled ship, the Borg can incorporate that power source, technology or design into their Collective and become even more powerful?

We've seen that Species 8472 were able to defeat Borg cubes. It is also implied that the only reason for this was because the Borg could not assimilate 8472 individuals or technology. But does that negate the possibility of a tipping point?

If some feel it is is necessary, I'll create a new thread so as not to further derail this one.
 
Er, moving BACK to the Borg; this might have already come up, and if it has, just ignore it (I tried reading all the arguments, but the sheer number of quotes and counter-quotes melted my brain. v_v ) I should point out that in First Contact Picard only used a Tommy Gun against a grand total of two Borg; I mean, the Borg have never adapted to phaser frequencies any faster than three or four felled Borg, so why assume that just because Picard didn't wait for them to adapt to the weapon, that they automatically can't? It'd be the same as saying, after seeing three Borg successfully killed with phaser rifles 'My God, they can't adapt to them!' I, personally think he should have at least milked as many dead drones out of the weapon as he could before they adapted, but then again when they inevitably became immune, he would be facing about a dozen aggravated Borg drones with naught but a prayer and a useless phaser.


To the claims that the Borg have to follow the law of physics, I ask this; since when has Star Trek adhered to the laws of physics, or even the basic laws of existence? I mean, consider Good Kirk and Evil Kirk (one body of matter becoming two bodies of matter with mass equal to the original body of matter,) the fusion of Neelix and Tuvok, (two bodies of matter fusing into one body of matter with mass equal to, probably, both original bodies of matters added and divided by two, and THEN somehow becoming the original two bodies of matter again,) Q, (enough said there,) Warp 10...

Or, if you want to look at something more commonplace in the Star Trek universe, what about inertial dampers? They're devices meant to keep the human body from being crushed to jelly during moments of extreme acceleration or deceleration.

The laws of physics really don't apply to Star Trek, at least not when the plot writers don't want them to.

And, reiterated what was said previously about the Borg not adapting to hand-to-hand combat... why would they need to? In a cube, they have superior strength, vastly superior numbers. I mean, an Away Team consisting of humans would only be able to take down a number of drones in hand to hand that would probably be less than the amount of drones the Borg would gain by assimilating them! The Borg are a very patient Collective; they don't adapt to forms of attack that inconvenience them, but instead those that have the potential to do some serious damage.

Example; Ten unarmed Starfleet officers inside a cube against Borg that don't bother to adapt, versus ten Starfleet officers armed with phasers and enough 'ammo' to take out the entire Borg populace inside a cube against Borg that can't adapt. Which would cause the most chaos?
 
This is my own humble theory, but for the past 10 years, I've always thought that 'bullets' worked on the Borg because, ultimately, they were still holographic projectiles of energy, and that tactic (or at least Starfleet holographic signatures, if there is such a thing) had never been used against the Borg like that before. Which also then makes me think that that had their been a third drone, he probably would've adapted to the little discharges of photons and forcefields that would make up a holographic attack.
 
There has to be some tipping point to the Borg's ability to adapt to weapons.

Good tip. Er, point.

Obviously any old, already-adapted-against thing can still bring down the Borg by strength of sheer numbers, just as certainly as a strong laser can carve up a Starfleet ship even when weak lasers are considered ridiculous weapons against Starfleet shields. It seemed to be purely conventional firepower that caused "heavy surface damage" to the Borg in the battle of ST:FC before Picard arrived, for example.

There'd probably be at least three primary factors affecting the tipping point. First, how large a pool of Borg resources are you facing? Sixty drones can not only deploy more shield strength against your new weapon than three Drones can, they can also deploy more computing power to come up with the adaptation. Second, how good a weapon did you come up with? It may be very difficult to predict what will work and what will not, but you might get lucky and introduce something that is inherently difficult to adapt against. Third, how much resources can you pool into your attack? There are limits to how big a tri-isophasic phaser you can build and fire, just as there are limits to how strong a shield the Borg can build against it.

In terms of the Tommy-gun, Picard was initially facing the resources of just two Drones. He had a shipwide infestation, though, and could have expected the rest to adapt unless these two were separated from the local Collective at their time of death. (Might the holodeck have disrupted their communications?) Also, we have many examples of Treknology that can be wielded by a single person and is able to stop bullets, so the next Drone or two would have been on the safe side of the tipping point if Picard tried the gun again. No need to up the Borg ante.

Was the weapon special enough that adaptation would be difficult? Possibly the Borg would be temporarily fooled by some of its nonstandard, nonessential features that were the result of it begin a holodeck product. Not for too long, though, because they would not understand the concept of "trickery" enough to be "tricked" - they would simply approach this new, odd weapon as any piece of tech, number-crunching it to submission and never truly paying attention to the fact that it was "odd" or "confusing". The Borg aren't beduffled by illogical behavior, because they expect neither logic or illogic from their victims. They expect nothing - they don't sweat comprehension, they just assimilate.

Would there be a limit to the resources Picard could wield? He could easily produce hundreds of submachine guns, and get the manpower to fire those, no problem there. He couldn't easily modify the operating principles of the new weapon, but he could increase the power of the individual weapon by increasing the caliber and muzzle velocity and by introducing explosive or poisonous bullets. He could probably expect to kill all the hundreds of Drones onboard the E-E before he had to improve his weapons beyond field howlizer size. It would only be the next starship that would be unable to dent the Borg with bullets or artillery shells. But that time would come, since kinetic energy attacks and giant explosions can be shielded against in Trekverse. It wouldn't be Treknologically unsound for just two or three Drones to deploy a shield that stops artillery shells, not to mention to employ a technology that intercepts the shells or makes them explode in the barrels.

It's difficult to conceptualize any technology that would be beyond the ability of the Borg to adapt against in absolute terms. Entire stars being exploded on their face would be a problem magnitude-wise, but could be defeated by other types of approach; the Borg could easily devise tactics and technologies that make it too costly to explode stars at them, or allow them to escape at the last moment. Soon enough, increasing the magnitude of the weapon would become untenable, as there would be too much collateral damage, too much energy and effort sacrificed.

Subtler forms of attack like hacking or poisons or assorted lures would have better odds of working. But subtlety is blown the moment it creates the desired effect of Borg defeat. In order to be absolutely effective, such an attack would have to devastate all Borg without allowing them to communicate their findings to a further pool of Borg that remains capable of adaptation. And uninnovative or not, I wouldn't put it past the Borg to maintain a "reserve" of well-protected forces far behind the battle lines (concretely and figuratively), waiting for the cue to adapt to the ultimate doomsday weapon.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top