Spoilers Bonus scene from Season One Finale

[Rahul]

That's a very interesting parallel which I hadn't noticed. Something like the NID storyline would be nice, showing that actually section 31 is just a group of scared narcissists running around thinking they're saving the universe and actually making things worse. Self sustaining in that their own acts justify their existence by perpetuating conflict. That sort of story I could get behind. I hope that that's where they'll take it, but I'm more than a bit suspicious that they're going to be badass.

That would be a friggin' amazing storyline! Let's hope for the best...

 

[Rhodan]

Ironically, I´m kinda disappointed knowing where the Mirror Georgiou story is going. On the other hand, I would be glad if there was something interesting out of it.

 

[Noname Given]

Fanwank is shit because what makes it fanwank is that it's a cynical shallow attempt to pretend "SEE THIS IS STAR TREK" while in every other way absolutely disrespecting what came before or the setting/franchise.

Keeping visual and aesthetic or setting consistency isn't fanwank. Not giving a shit about the setting or franchise, then going "OH LOOK A TRIBBLE, I CLAPPED BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT IT IS" is Fanwank.

Thwen you must have really HATED TNG Season 1 because they had SO MANY TOS Models of stuff like the Galileo shuttlecraft and various other TOS props in the background of almost every inside ship scene during that season. Seems GR was okay with reconning everything and still screaming "See - TNG IS STAR TREK!" evey chance he got. Pity the show was so hated because of that and uit never received a decent run...oh, wait...

[Don't believe me, go rewatch some TNG Season1 eps and pay attention to what's in frame in the background on interior 1701-D ship scenes.]

 

[shapeshifter]

Fanwank, wangwank.

Prior Trek series went out of their way to distance themselves by time jumping a hundred years forwards or backwards, setting themselves up in situations where less fanwank would be expected... On a space station in deep space or even across the damn galaxy. Even then they managed to squeeze some wank in for special occasions such as milestone anniversary's.

But Discovery deliberately occurs within ten years prior to TOS just so the opportunity to provide backstory to many themes of that time exist. It is supposed to be familiar by design.

It's simple in the same way the haters here have told haters of old, if you don't like it, if it doesn't make you happy then why in the hell are you torturing yourself watching it?

I am with the rest of you that get it, I want moar please.

 

[Noname Given]

Where the hybrid women at?

I don't understand?? Hybrid women??

It's a play on the actual line from later in that that scene in "Blazing Saddles" where Clevon Little says (to KKK members sitting in line): "Hey! Where the white women at?"

 

[ITDUDE]

This better be a DVD extra, which means there better be aDVD set...

Blu-ray set (better be 4k Blue-ray, DVDs are dead and buried) probably will come out right before Season 2 starts (so November this year at latest? If rumors that Season 2 will actually start this year are true)

 

[lawman]

Very good list, and a very balanced viewpoint on Trek's morals and messages without overstating. I'd make two small tweaks if I may - I think point 11 is stronger than you worded it - with the exception of DS9 the show has broadly been actively anti religious, since way back in the original.

You're right about the sentiment, and fine by me, although I'm not exactly sure how to word it more strongly.

I also think point 5 is aspirational rather than demonstrated. I actually think the Federation act in quite an imperialist/colonial manner at times, and that is somewhat tied to my other tweak - Kirk in particular loved 'rescuing' savages from their entire way of life then telling them to do things their way and warping off into the sunset.

I don't buy this quite so much. I think Kirk did a very good job of justifying his actions — whether in good episodes like "A Taste of Armageddon" or lesser ones like "The Apple," his priority was always to make sure that other cultures had the chance to develop and make their own choices, not be in thrall to some arbitrary power. That was the whole point of the Prime Directive, which IMHO was a conceptually brilliant thing for any expanding spacegoing civilization... or earthbound one, for that matter. (And it was a much more defensible take on the Prime Directive than what was foisted on us in TNG, where it had somehow become okay to let a culture die by natural disaster because of what seemed to boil down to a belief in fate.) And I never got any imperialistic "white man's burden" vibe from TOS; even much less advanced cultures (e.g., in "Friday's Child") were never stereotyped as mere "savages."

I'd also add one more positive point. It's a big message of Trek that we are who we say we are. The values we say we have, we actually have and act on.

Excellent point, and an important one. I should add that to the list.

...once ENT established the reality of the unit we have to contend with a dubious moral lesson hidden beneath the surface (essentially the Jack Nicholson speech from A Few Good Men) and ask ourselves whether Starfleet's utopia actually just rests on the shoulders of people willing to do horrible things.

And that's what I find a bit depressing. I wholeheartedly reject the idea that peace and diplomacy and so on can only exist if there's a silent partner in the background doing horrible things in secret. And in my mind, Star Trek rejects that idea too.

Well stated.

... I definitely don't see section 31 actually "protecting" Earth. More of them as assholes thinking they are protecting Earth.

Indeed. Never mind the CIA; I'd analogize S31 more to a white nationalist militia group.

... But I can absolutely see some people - even in the Utopia of Star Trek - believing we need such a clandestine organization. And then implementing it. But the writers have to walk an extremely tight rope: Showing the flawed morality of S31, without actually promoting it.

But herein lies the problem. Take Cultcross's example, the movie A Few Good Men... It was extremely well-written (Aaron Sorkin, after all), and well-acted... and still, some people come away from it convinced that Jack Nicholson's character was right. Nicholson's a talented actor, and he expressed himself with force and conviction, and that carries persuasive weight.

I don't trust the people making DSC to offer anything with that level of sophistication, but then we encounter the opposite problem: lots of obvious moral anvils being dropped, which does not make for good storytelling. A little on-the-nose righteous speechmaking goes a long way. William Shatner could pull it off with panache on occasion, as could Patrick Stewart, but Sonequa Martin-Green really doesn't have what it takes, nor does anybody else in the DSC cast, IMHO. (Except possibly Anthony Rapp, but he doesn't seem likely to get the opportunity.) When I say I want Trek stories to involve ethical dilemmas and moral allegories, that doesn't mean I want them to come across as After-School Specials.

(Can't speak to the effectiveness of the SG-1 example, as I've never watched the show.)

 

[fireproof78]

It's simple in the same way the haters here have told haters of old, if you don't like it, if it doesn't make you happy then why in the hell are you torturing yourself watching it?

This is an excellent question.

 

[ITDUDE]

I wonder why they left that scene out of the episode?

It was probably original season 1 cliff hanger, until they decided to give fans a "valentine" by teasing nuEnterprise.
And pay attention to any show-runners that say they planned that shot from beginning of the series. Lol, no they didn't.

 

[ITDUDE]

The top argument levelled against Discovery is that they are coming up with too many original ideas and concepts that are too different to what's come before, not the opposite.

`shroom drive, yep that's a good original concept. (should I put sarcasm tags, in case it's not obvious?)

 

[ITDUDE]

Nope. Care to try again? First I haven't seen it, then I've seen it all... what's next? I've secretly seen season two?

Please tell me it ends with Discovery doing a Holdo maneuver into a star that somehow will reset the timeline? Pleeeease tell me it ends like that. I want STD to end with a huge, big reset button.

 

[ITDUDE]

View attachment 4291

Yep, I can see it lasting 200 pages easily, like that Enterprise thread

 

[ITDUDE]

I haven't binge-watched TOS in a long while. Probably something I'll do once I'm done with Babylon 5.

Do BSG (2004), it's much better to binge watch than B5 (but B5 is great too)

 

[ITDUDE]

I tried getting through season 1 of B5 and couldn't finish it

How come? I watched it originally as it aired, and it was freaking awesome! Possibly the second best 1st season of ANY sci-fi show (Firefly 1st/only season will never be matched)

 

[ITDUDE]

Choose one random assertion about someone that you don't know, and stick to it for more than five minutes. You can't have it both ways.

This thread is awesome! The posters on this board are MORE awesome!

 

[ITDUDE]

Shows just how "unpopular" DSC really is, huh?

Oh it's not "unpopular". We know it has enough watchers to get a second season. I would use "polarizing" instead of "unpopular"

 

[ITDUDE]

I was really into B5 first season. Then they had to write out the main character Sinclair and to me it lost the whole dynamic then first season started and was never able to bring the whole original plan back in line.

Now that the truth has come out after Michael O'Hare's death, they had a good reason to do so. But JMS did a great job with what happened. Other than 5th season, it's a freaking awesome show.

 

[cultcross]

Multi quote, my kingdom for a multi quote!

 

[fireproof78]

`shroom drive, yep that's a good original concept. (should I put sarcasm tags, in case it's not obvious?)

Based on science that is currently being explored?

Can't have that in Star Trek! People might actually research things on their own...and then where will we be?! O_o

 

[ozzfloyd]

B5 inhabits the same tier for me as Andromeda or Earth Final Conflict. Never could muster up the effort to get past season 2. Conversely, DSC is my favorite TV scifi since DS9.