Loved the episode. Scotty shined in it. I hated the Christian propaganda aspect of it.
Blessed be the Sun
- Thread starter Esteban
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I'm gonna get nit-picky and point out that Spock says "Colloquial 20th-Century English". Colloquial as in informal, conversational, everyday; possibly to include slang. Most of "Bread And Circuses" plays on the fact that, the Roman civilization parallels notwithstanding, this planet is basically 1960's Earth. Spock is making a point of this.
Flavius' comment "Are you trying to be funny?" wouldn't sound right coming from a Metron or a Thasian or even a Romulan or an Eminian, all of whose English was much more formal.
I don't believe there was ever a Universal Translator used, unless it was mentioned or shown onscreen ("Arena", "Metamorphosis", "Lights of Zetar").
"Bread and Circuses" seems to view world history in this way: Long ago, there was an evil, decadent empire called Rome. A small group of people named Christians went about in this Empire preaching and practicing a philosophy of total love and brotherhood. Although many of these Christians were persecuted and even martyred by the big bad Romans, eventually this philosophy took hold among enough people so that the Roman tyranny was ultimately bloodlessly deposed and civilization lived happily ever after.
Maybe the preceding fairy tale describes the situation on planet 892-IV, but in terms of our own Earth it could not be more completely at odds with actual history. Kirk and company, when they learn that Christianity is starting to spread on the planet below, seem to be pleased and acting like this is a good thing. If Kirk were more familiar with the history of his own planet, his reaction would more likely be to be appalled and distraught.
Maybe the preceding fairy tale describes the situation on planet 892-IV, but in terms of our own Earth it could not be more completely at odds with actual history. Kirk and company, when they learn that Christianity is starting to spread on the planet below, seem to be pleased and acting like this is a good thing. If Kirk were more familiar with the history of his own planet, his reaction would more likely be to be appalled and distraught.
I know I've seen the episode, but I barely remember it. You guys have me wanting to watch it again ASAP!
Well done. In addition to contemporary fashions, hairstyles, colloquialisms, male/female roles, etc., Star Trek also exhibited the historical views of 1960s Americans. I bet the history books in that era depicted the Roman Empire as per your fairy tale.
Doug
The view of Christianity presented in "Bread and Circuses" is consistent with the mainstream American view at the time, and certainly consistent with Hollywood Biblical epics from the silent era through the 1960s.
But . . . there's been good and bad in every civilization and culture that has existed throughout history. Your comment smacks of knee-jerk revisionism or tu quoque ("Gladiators were forced to fight to the death before cheering crowds? Well, what about the Inquisition?")
If this episode is as blatant an example of so-called Christian propaganda as it's accused of being, then surely an atheist like Gene Roddenberry would never have allowed it to air...right?
As for the similarities, I am going with the explanation suggested in the very excellent fanfic written by one of our own members:
As for the similarities, I am going with the explanation suggested in the very excellent fanfic written by one of our own members:
Nerys Ghemor. She suggests that 892 IV, Omega IV, and Miri's World were not duplicates of Earth, but actually WERE Earth. Meaning, they were parallel universe versions of Earth, which the Enterprise encountered because it briefly 'slid' into and out of those Earths' respective universes due to instability in local spacetime.
Okay so far, given the cultural practices of the Roman Empire, "decadent" would certainly be appropriate. Many of the Emperors could have had the label "Evil" attached to them.
Well, hardly a "small group," One of the main problems the Roman authorities had with Christianity was it popularity.
Jesus taught that people should love God and one another. Also God created all human beings equally.
Official Roman government persecution was between the mid first century through the beginning of the fourth century. After that tolerance began to grow.
On February 27, 380, Christianity officially became the religion of the Empire.
Christianity was certainly a major (but not sole) factor in the demise of the Roman tyranny, but Imperial incompetence, monetary trouble, and military problems all caused the Fall of Rome, Obviously if the homelands of the Empire could be invaded by the Germanic people there were military problems.
There was also difficulties with the lead pipes.
With the Fall of Rome, the Christian church increasingly became a political player, starting with diplomatic dealings with the very people who invaded Rome. The church entered into a period of missionary activity and expansion throughout Europe. Monasteries and schools grew. The cathedral schools developed into great universities, the spread of knowledge lead to the Renaissance.
Which is of course understandable.
Much better that the planet stay the way it had been for the last two thousand years? With all of it's institutions intact. Why would Kirk, Spock or McCoy want this? They'd just been exposed to what life was like on that world, Christianity offers a positive chance for change
Change for the better.
The Romans may have inadvertently poisoned their water supply by using lead pipes in their elaborate plumbing system, but, by the gods, at least they were clean!
They'd just been exposed to what life was like on that world, Christianity offers a positive chance for change
Change for the better.
Sure. In the same way the Nazi party offered a positive chance for change in Germany of the early 1930's.
I would not call the agenda of the Nazi Party "positive" myself. YMMV.
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Is it enough to mention the Nazis, or does someone actually have to say "Hitler" in their post?
I assumed that remark was meant ironically.
Invoking either Hitler or Nazis qualifies.Is it enough to mention the Nazis, or does someone actually have to say "Hitler" in their post?
BTW, I didn't know until just now that Godwin is an actual person!
Well, if the shoe fits . . .
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If this episode is as blatant an example of so-called Christian propaganda as it's accused of being, then surely an atheist like Gene Roddenberry would never have allowed it to air...right?
Even an athiest like Roddenberry needed to keep the network and sponsors happy.
Even an athiest like Roddenberry needed to keep the network and sponsors happy.
Despite what some people seem to think, Roddenberry wasn't running Star Trek by himself, nor did he "own the show."
Bread and Circuses was the second to the last episode of the second season. The network was likely already in the process of showing Gene Roddenberry to the door. For NBC, part of renewing Star Trek for a third season was Gene Roddenberry's replacement as executive producer. Roddenberry in fact wasn't keeping the network happy.
if Roddenberry had somehow managed to get a episode produced with a overtly atheistic storyline, the late 1960's sponsors would have dropped the show like a rock.
Hey TOSalltheway, welcome to the forum
Word is that the atheist Gene Roddenberry and the Christian Gene Coon had some pretty heavy disagreements about this episode, to the point where Coon walked away straight after its production.
I have never seen documents that prove it, but the fan rumour mill says that they disagreed over the script's tone (allegedly Roddenberry wanted a parody of 60's TV networks, their executives etc), and the Christianity plot.
Roddenberry walked because the network moved the show to 10:00 p.m. Fridays — the “death slot.” He stayed on as executive producer, but was no longer personally involved with the show. Fred Freiberger was the line producer — the one making actual production decisions — in the third season.
TV networks and their executives must have been an even bigger sacred cow than Christianity!
If it was a 20th-century version of the Roman Empire, then why aren't the Romans speaking Latin instead of colloquial English? That has always bothered me, more so than the reference to Christianity. (I am a good [moderate] Baptist, BTW.)
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