I'm the exact opposite - I'm enthusiastic about pretty much all of them to different extents, except Black Panther. I've never liked T'Challa or Wakanda in the slightest.
Mind you, I had similar feelings about Doctor Strange and the film was O.K.
Black Panther - Pre-release Thread
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Mind you, I had similar feelings about Doctor Strange and the film was O.K.
I've been reading the Christopher Priest run of the series (which the film borrows many elements from) and so far I'm loving it. I'm only a quarter way through, but I'm hoping to finish it before the film is out.
Great to read, although MCU's bar isn't very high for villains beyond Loki and Vulture.
I thought Kaecilius in Doctor Strange was a pretty well-done villain. He wasn't really malevolent; he genuinely believed he was doing something good, something that would make the world better in the long run. But he was willing to sacrifice the lives of the few for the good of the many, and he was duped by Dormammu. Plus, of course, the whole movie was an origin story for a nicely multilayered villain in Mordo.
Yeah, the villain problem is a legitimate criticism against the MCU. Netflix had it going at first with both Wilson Fisk and Kilgrave, but then they botched The Hand pretty badly in two consecutive series. I may catch some flack for this, but I thought Grant Ward (not Hive) was a pretty good Marvel villain, although I agree he had pretty much worn out his welcome by the time they killed him off.
The most glaringly undeveloped MCU villain is Obadiah Stane. The first Iron Man movie sets him up to be Howard Stark's right hand man throughout his career, but despite all of Howard's later development, Stane has never been mentioned again. Even Anton Vanko appeared on Agent Carter, despite the timeline not really matching up.
I know there are some that don't like the notion of connecting every Marvel villain to Hydra, but Stane would have been the perfect choice. He was selling weapons to both sides and it would put a whole new context to his lines about keeping the balance of power in "the right hands, our hands." And don't get me started on how much he benefited from Howard's death.
The most glaringly undeveloped MCU villain is Obadiah Stane. The first Iron Man movie sets him up to be Howard Stark's right hand man throughout his career, but despite all of Howard's later development, Stane has never been mentioned again. Even Anton Vanko appeared on Agent Carter, despite the timeline not really matching up.
I know there are some that don't like the notion of connecting every Marvel villain to Hydra, but Stane would have been the perfect choice. He was selling weapons to both sides and it would put a whole new context to his lines about keeping the balance of power in "the right hands, our hands." And don't get me started on how much he benefited from Howard's death.
Maybe for Kaecilius, but I found him rather one-noted. However, I agree that the film does a great job of setting up Mordo as a complex villain and has the potential to join the list in the next Dr. Strange film.
I agree with all of this (except for Grant Ward, but then I also have special loathing against him). Interesting points about Stane and how he was seemingly dropped. I'm one of those who doesn't like connecting everything with HYDRA, but I agree that Stane would've been a good retroactive connection. Certainly better than Senator Stern.
I dunno, I think Madame Gao is a pretty awesome villain. The problem is that they keep sidelining her in favor of other characters -- but that was really kind of the fakeout in The Defenders, I think.
I feel it was Ronan. The comics' Ronan the Accuser is a pretty complex, ambiguous character, from what I've seen, but the movie version had absolutely no personality or motivation. I've seen plastic wrap with more depth and texture.
Darren Cross was also badly underdeveloped. Villains who are just insane, rather than having some more personal motivation, are pretty boring.
I still think it makes sense that Aldrich Killian and AIM were working for Hydra. Not only are the two groups associated in the comics, but they both tried to assassinate President Ellis only months apart, as if they failed once and tried a second time. And the Hydra-affiliated Centipede group in AoS was using a variant of AIM's Extremis technology.
@Christopher --
Good points about Aldrich Killian, AIM, and Centipede. With Killian, I saw his story as more of a personal vengeance. He was rejected by his idol, a man he was already obsessed with, and then sought to destroy him without losing the obsession.
Interesting that all three of the villains in The Iron Man movies, Stane, Hammer and Killian all wanted to be Tony Stark in one way or another. Stane out of greed, Hammer out of envy and Killian out of obsession.
Also good points considering Ronan, but the Guardians movies altered so many characters into "in name-only" versions of their comics-selves as it is already, that I guess I gave him a slide.
With Darren Cross, I saw his motivations in that he was rejected by his father figure, something that might not have resulted in outright villainy if not for the mind-altering effects of the Pym Particles* that were mentioned in the movie.
*My voice texting function translated this as "pimp articles".
Good points about Aldrich Killian, AIM, and Centipede. With Killian, I saw his story as more of a personal vengeance. He was rejected by his idol, a man he was already obsessed with, and then sought to destroy him without losing the obsession.
Interesting that all three of the villains in The Iron Man movies, Stane, Hammer and Killian all wanted to be Tony Stark in one way or another. Stane out of greed, Hammer out of envy and Killian out of obsession.
Also good points considering Ronan, but the Guardians movies altered so many characters into "in name-only" versions of their comics-selves as it is already, that I guess I gave him a slide.
With Darren Cross, I saw his motivations in that he was rejected by his father figure, something that might not have resulted in outright villainy if not for the mind-altering effects of the Pym Particles* that were mentioned in the movie.
*My voice texting function translated this as "pimp articles".
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Sure, but that's exactly the sort of person that Hydra would recruit or manipulate -- someone who already had a personal motivation to do the sort of things they wanted done.
I think Loki, Vulture, Zemo and Pierce have all been absolutely excellent villains. I also have to agree that Grant Ward worked fantastically - for a while. I don't think I've ever seen a better or more daring twist in a tv show.
Killian, Kaecilius and Cross were very mediocre in general, though I did enjoy Cross to a reasonable extent. But yes, they all, including him, needed more development.
Stane and Ronan are good candidates for most poorly done, and I agree with most of the points made about them, but I personally might argue for Hela, who had so few scenes with the protagonists that they had to throw in an extended exposition tour of her explaining Asgard's history and Odin's relics to a glorified extra - which still didn't really flesh out her motivation or personality much at all, even though it was funny.
Killian, Kaecilius and Cross were very mediocre in general, though I did enjoy Cross to a reasonable extent. But yes, they all, including him, needed more development.
Stane and Ronan are good candidates for most poorly done, and I agree with most of the points made about them, but I personally might argue for Hela, who had so few scenes with the protagonists that they had to throw in an extended exposition tour of her explaining Asgard's history and Odin's relics to a glorified extra - which still didn't really flesh out her motivation or personality much at all, even though it was funny.
People don't seem to mention the complexities of Winter Soldier as a great villain in Cap 2.
Marvel has wonderful heroes and no villain problem. This culture is way too fixated on villains anyways, these days.
Marvel has wonderful heroes and no villain problem. This culture is way too fixated on villains anyways, these days.
@Anwar -- Here is some ammo for your next Marvel fanboy vs DC fanboy argument.
Actual Facebook page--
Give Black Panther a Rotten Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes
Public· Hosted by Down With Disney's Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys
Actual Facebook page--
Give Black Panther a Rotten Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes
Public· Hosted by Down With Disney's Treatment of Franchises and its Fanboys
Mostly because a lot of people don't like to think of Winter Soldier as 'a villain'. He's more of a victim, overall.
Okay, I can see that perspective then. An antagonist for sure, just not quite a villain by definition.
So then we have complex and interesting antagonist which is even better than a complex villain! Everybody wins!
That's not Marvel vs. DC. It's the general destructive mentality that's infected all levels of our society from fandom to government. A subset of disgruntled, entitled people who feel their comfortable white male privilege is under attack are reacting by attacking back, conspiring to tear down their rivals by any dishonest means necessary. We saw it a few years ago with the Sad and Rabid Puppies gaming the Hugo Awards with "voting slates" to try to make sure their approved, far-right-skewing candidates won or just to childishly sabotage the awards by nominating porn stories, and we see it now with disgruntled fanboys gaming Rotten Tomatoes in a similar way to try to artificially shrink the scores of movies that don't fit their preferred politics. Marvel vs. DC is just their excuse -- it's no coincidence that they're targeting an Afrocentric movie. I mean, they're hosted by, and openly emulating, the group that claimed credit for rigging the Last Jedi score, and that group was overtly "Alt-Right" (i.e. Neo-Nazi) in its politics and condemned TLJ for having heroes who weren't all white men. This is about something far, far darker and more dangerous than a rivalry between superhero franchises. This is driven by the very thing that all comics superheroes have been fighting against since the beginning of the genre.
I hope so. I also hope that Killmonger survives the film. Everyone talks about how the MCU has weak villains. Not all of its villains have been weak. With the exception of Loki, most of the first-rate MCU villains were killed off after one or one-a-half (Baron von Strucker) appearance. In Loki's case, he has been transformed from a major villain into comic relief. And even worse, he's not very interesting as a comic relief.
I really liked Ward for the first couple seasons, but he really should have been killed off either at the end of the first or during the second season.
It says right there on the stupid event description that they will be doing the same to all Disney-made Marvel movies from now on. But sure insert your irrelevant politics into this.
That's just a symptom of the real problem.
Which is?