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Biggest problem with "Voyager" is that they didn't really take any chances.

I have no issues with Braga, because I think that he can do good work. I also think that VOY was hamstrung by the network. However, all that means is that VOY could have done more and I think there is a lot of potential that was left behind.

VOY is entertaining in its own right, but none of it sticks. It's fun, popcorn munching, relaxing, entertainment. But, the characters never grabbed me in a meaningful way. Others have different POV and that's is just fine by me.

I just feel like critics of VOY are much maligned because there is not consensus on what VOY did well at and what it did poorly at. I don't want more melodrama or soap opera, but I think that VOY missed out on exploring some conflicts, and having genuine relationship drama that could have been unpacked more fully in a serialized format.

tl:dr VOY was ok, but could have been more. Insert "Shut up and watch the show" comment here.
 
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Since it's still on my clipboard, I might as well spread the smiles.
 
Even if his pov is earnest, forthcoming, and without spite, it's still just a tiny window of time in a show that was on air for seven years. He had a falling out with Braga, who was EP during season 6. Moore didn't feel welcomed on the show.

I mentioned Bob Picardo because he gives so many interviews and talks specifically about Braga, early season 6, the writers room, etc. And by listening to him, you'd get type impression that these were the best of times. Ditto for other actors/directors.

BTW, it was also Braga who wanted to do more with Year of Hell(he wrote it) He was about to take over as head writer for season 4 and planned it to the season finale/premiere, before the Borg storyline came to fruition, but not a season long episode. Season 4 is possibly the most solid season of the show. How many great stories would be lost?

I've said this before: There seems to be this false dichotomy and popular notion that More serialization=good. There are trade offs. Voyager is (as others have said) a "serialized procedural" just like TNG, DS9, and Enterprise. It has many ongoing arcs, and still acts as a platform for telling interesting sci fi stories. IMO, it doesn't need to be more melodramatic, more soap opera, more angst, or any of the other things people have imagined into Voyager's premise.

Network execs really started to tamper with the producer's vision for the show in Enterprise, yet Enterprise had the most "serialization" of all. The premise fir Enterprise was to be sequel to First Contact, and a prequel to the other shows. It was supposed to take place only on earth for the whole first season, and without any temporal cold war. You can see how much compromising happened there. Execs even wanted to have a band that played in the mess hall.

If you were to put yourself into the situation VOY found herself in, what would you expect to happen?

As for ENT, I think setting the first season on Earth would have been a mistake, though they could have done 6 or so episodes set on Earth. They should have left the TCW out of the show all together.

ENT went full on serialised in S3 and 4, which most people agree are the best seasons of the show with many saying that S4 is what the show should have been from the start i.e what people imagined the show should be about. S1-2 which leaned more towards episodic all be it with some small arcs are considered the weakest.
 
I was drawing points of comparison. He said that Voyager was suffering from studio interference leading to a more episodic format,(FTR, I've never heard any of the cast or producers complain about this)when in fact, if any series suffered from heavy handed studio interference, it was Enterprise, the show that did experiment with more serialization. Even season 1 and 2 are more serialized than previous shows. And not everyone prefers the latter seasons of ENT. For instance, C. Bryan Jones, founder of Trek.FM has said that he prefers 1 & 2, and that the last season has way too much pandering.

I wouldn't call any of what Trek has done full-on serialization, nor would I want that in a series. It would mean that every episode would simply be a chapter in a larger story. Every episode would be a cliff hanger with no beginning, no end. There's a reason that serialized shows were for decades seen as unsophisticated or "low-brow." The format may work well for streaming services, but you do lose a lot of good storytelling in broadcast format.
 
In many respects that's what the episodes in Trek are chapters in a larger story.

In the case of VOY the largeer story was Voyager trying to get home and the individual episodes (chapters) make up that story. So some would say that VOY should have leaned more towards the serialisation end of the scale.

In the case of DSN we had an initail aim of bringing Bajor into the Federation (which was largely ignored) and later the introduction of the Dominion who initalited tried to destablise the AQ?BQ by having wars like the Cardassian-Klingon War, the Federatio Klingon-War and last the Dominion War. So a degree of seralisation was needed.

In the case of ENT it was set a few years before the UFP was founded so the obvious story to tell was how the Federation came into being requirng a certain degree of serialisation.

In the case of TOS/TNG the overall story was exploring beyond the frontier which was mixed in with flying the flag (so to speak) so whilst a certain degree of serialisation was needed it was perhaps less than the shows mentioned above.
 
I was drawing points of comparison. He said that Voyager was suffering from studio interference leading to a more episodic format,(FTR, I've never heard any of the cast or producers complain about this)when in fact, if any series suffered from heavy handed studio interference, it was Enterprise, the show that did experiment with more serialization. Even season 1 and 2 are more serialized than previous shows. And not everyone prefers the latter seasons of ENT. For instance, C. Bryan Jones, founder of Trek.FM has said that he prefers 1 & 2, and that the last season has way too much pandering.

I wouldn't call any of what Trek has done full-on serialization, nor would I want that in a series. It would mean that every episode would simply be a chapter in a larger story. Every episode would be a cliff hanger with no beginning, no end. There's a reason that serialized shows were for decades seen as unsophisticated or "low-brow." The format may work well for streaming services, but you do lose a lot of good storytelling in broadcast format.
Well, many studios prefer syndication, which means that the episodic format works better, because you can air them in any order.
 
Even if his pov is earnest, forthcoming, and without spite, it's still just a tiny window of time in a show that was on air for seven years. He had a falling out with Braga, who was EP during season 6. Moore didn't feel welcomed on the show.
I don't see any reason not to take him at face value. Otherwise your just left the big coincidence that people are infinitely forgiving of DS9 and hyper-critical of Voyager and a guy who worked on both shows simply had a skewed perspective when he noticed a lot of differences in how the shows were managed that sync up almost perfectly with the criticisms people have.
BTW, it was also Braga who wanted to do more with Year of Hell(he wrote it) He was about to take over as head writer for season 4 and planned it to the season finale/premiere, before the Borg storyline came to fruition, but not a season long episode. Season 4 is possibly the most solid season of the show. How many great stories would be lost?
How many great stories would've been gained? We don't know. We have no idea what this alternate version of Voyager would've looked like. Your attitude seems to be "They avoided risks the show turned out okay, so clearly they made the right decision. If they had done what people are suggesting it might not have turned out so good." It sort of reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld where Jerry owes that annoying rival comedian lunch. "We could go to the same place again and it'd be good, but it would be the same. We could go somewhere else and it would be different, but it might not be as good." If they went somewhere else and it's not as good, does that mean they made the "wrong" decision? With the benefit of hindsight, certainly.

On the opposite end of the scale, we have Moore's own BSG reboot. He took the challenge of a lost ship and scarce resources head on and most people would say the show fizzled out in the end. Does that mean he made the "wrong" decision by trying to stick to the challenges he had set up for the show? Would it have been more commendable if he had dropped all that after a few episodes and stuck to more familiar sci-fi territory and the show was generally pleasant to watch it's whole run? I honestly can't say.
I've said this before: There seems to be this false dichotomy and popular notion that More serialization=good. There are trade offs. Voyager is (as others have said) a "serialized procedural" just like TNG, DS9, and Enterprise. It has many ongoing arcs, and still acts as a platform for telling interesting sci fi stories.
The complaints here are more particular than that. It isn't just serialization for serialization's sake. It's that certain aspects of the premise warranted more continuity. If the premise is that the ship has to fend for itself, for example, damage and resources should be an ongoing issue.
IMO, it doesn't need to be more melodramatic, more soap opera, more angst, or any of the other things people have imagined into Voyager's premise.
(Cue dramatic music)
"Unhappy with a new treaty, Federation Colonists along the Cardassian border have banded together.

Calling themselves 'The Maquis,' they continue to fight the Cardassians.

Some consider them heroes, but to the governments of the Federation and Cardassia, they are outlaws."


For someone like me, who saw some episodes in the middle of Voyager's run before the pilot, it was almost surreal how big a deal the pilot seemed to make out of them. I don't even think I knew there was supposed to be a mixed crew in the first few episodes I saw. It isn't just the pilot either. Parallax teases you with the idea of a maquis mutiny before immediately dropping it and giving us one of the most painful and cliched spacial anomoly stories imaginable. Alliances presents an issue that looks like it could fracture the crew only to be largely forgotten later.

There are also supply issues mentioned early on that never fully materialized.
 
Not that I would ask you to read through this thread as it has become very long, but it seems the loop is beginning again, and all of this has been discussed to every scrutinizing detail.

You can only take Moore's perspective as Moore's perspective. You can't take Moore's perspective and use it as a representation of the behind the scene process for the the entirety of Voyager. Much more, you can't take his perspective as some universal truth that would apply to everyone else's perspective.

If you want to see some real complaining about missed opportunities, contrived storytelling, etc, just go visit some BSG discussions.

You're creating an arbitrary goal post for Voyager, ex post facto, and then criticizing it for not scoring. What's worse, all of these complaints you raise about missed opportunities, are actually present in the show. For instance, Maquis integrating with starfleet-it's the main arc for the entire first two seasons. It's resolved in Basics.

The Maquis and Starfleet have no quarrel in the Delta quadrant. They are all Federation citizens. They simply have a different way of doing things. They aren't enemies even at home. When Sisko is hunting Eddington, he calls up the Malinche and says he needs help stopping a Maquis ship. The other captain is like "What for?!"

Should the Voyager crew be at each others throats, starving, and being chased and ravaged by enemies for seven years?! NO! That makes no sense. They aren't at war with each other, nor the delta quadrant. They have replicators, the most advanced ship in SF, and a talented crew. They are often shown searching for resources, raw materials, trade, etc. It's often what gets the episodes adventure going.

Voyager turned out exactly how the premise is pitched in the writer's bible and early promotional materials.
 
I don't see any reason not to take him at face value. Otherwise your just left the big coincidence that people are infinitely forgiving of DS9 and hyper-critical of Voyager and a guy who worked on both shows simply had a skewed perspective when he noticed a lot of differences in how the shows were managed that sync up almost perfectly with the criticisms people have.
Let's say all that he said was accurate. Let's even say he understated it. What do you have? The writer's room was a little grumpy when getting ready to start working on Season 6? Oh my! There was a lot discord behind the scenes on Empire Strikes Back. So much so that the producer was fired. There was grumpy actors, script problems, major budgetary problems... Did it hurt the product?
 
Not that I would ask you to read through this thread as it has become very long, but it seems the loop is beginning again, and all of this has been discussed to every scrutinizing detail.

You can only take Moore's perspective as Moore's perspective. You can't take Moore's perspective and use it as a representation of the behind the scene process for the the entirety of Voyager. Much more, you can't take his perspective as some universal truth that would apply to everyone else's perspective.

If you want to see some real complaining about missed opportunities, contrived storytelling, etc, just go visit some BSG discussions.

You're creating an arbitrary goal post for Voyager, ex post facto, and then criticizing it for not scoring. What's worse, all of these complaints you raise about missed opportunities, are actually present in the show. For instance, Maquis integrating with starfleet-it's the main arc for the entire first two seasons. It's resolved in Basics.

The Maquis and Starfleet have no quarrel in the Delta quadrant. They are all Federation citizens. They simply have a different way of doing things. They aren't enemies even at home. When Sisko is hunting Eddington, he calls up the Malinche and says he needs help stopping a Maquis ship. The other captain is like "What for?!"

Should the Voyager crew be at each others throats, starving, and being chased and ravaged by enemies for seven years?! NO! That makes no sense. They aren't at war with each other, nor the delta quadrant. They have replicators, the most advanced ship in SF, and a talented crew. They are often shown searching for resources, raw materials, trade, etc. It's often what gets the episodes adventure going.

Voyager turned out exactly how the premise is pitched in the writer's bible and early promotional materials.
And the only thing that I'll argue on that point is the hyperbolic examples of what I want is ridiculous, on its face.

Just because VOY turned out alright, and is generally satisfying as a product, doesn't mean it could have done more. Period. Full stop. Not constant bickering. Not BSG in Trek clothing. Not a completely crippled ship for full seven years. None of that!
 
Since you are no stranger to hyperbole(or generalizations), I'll explain why it's a fitting retort in this instance. Voyager didn't abandon the Maquis angle, nor did it ignore it's premise of being alone, or looking for resources. We are arguing about various degrees of prominence.

And if BSG is going to continually be used as an example of what Voyager should have been, it's freely available for me to argue the negative. If Moore is going to continually be used as some sort of "proof" of how Voyager "failed", his own shortcomings also become available.
 
Since you are no stranger to hyperbole(or generalizations), I'll explain why it's a fitting retort in this instance. Voyager didn't abandon the Maquis angle, nor did it ignore it's premise of being alone, or looking for resources. We are arguing about various degrees of prominence.

And if BSG is going to continually be used as an example of what Voyager should have been, it's freely available for me to argue the negative. If Moore is going to continually be used as some sort of "proof" of how Voyager "failed", his own shortcomings also become available.
Yes, but those are not all the arguments against VOY.

Also, degrees of prominence are a matter of personal taste. I think VOY could have done more.

I don't give two Federation dollars about what Moore things. nuBSG was dark and depressing for the sake of it and really not worth a rewatch. Hopefully its never rebooted.
 
I hear there is a reboot actually. A miniseries set to come out in 2025. It's called "Galactica: Into the Void" :whistle:
 
Not that I would ask you to read through this thread as it has become very long, but it seems the loop is beginning again, and all of this has been discussed to every scrutinizing detail.

It was like that on page God know's what..
 
You're creating an arbitrary goal post for Voyager, ex post facto, and then criticizing it for not scoring. What's worse, all of these complaints you raise about missed opportunities, are actually present in the show. For instance, Maquis integrating with starfleet-it's the main arc for the entire first two seasons. It's resolved in Basics.

Some of these issues aren't ex post facto but where held during the shows run esp. in regards to resources. And perhaps what some are saying isn't that there wasn't any tensions between the Maquis and Starfleet instead taht element should have been more in the foreground than it was.

We have no idea if the show would have been better, worse or the same if it had had more serialisation than it did. It's all pure speculation on our parts.
 
Some of these issues aren't ex post facto but where held during the shows run esp. in regards to resources. And perhaps what some are saying isn't that there wasn't any tensions between the Maquis and Starfleet instead taht element should have been more in the foreground than it was.

We have no idea if the show would have been better, worse or the same if it had had more serialisation than it did. It's all pure speculation on our parts.
Besides, speculation is fun, at least for me :)
 
Ron Moore is a whiner whose own attempts at a "Space Survival Drama" needed the Universe to be empty of all other life, and even then he cheated several times with random contrivances....and even THEN the show fell apart after 2 seasons.

And I'm sorry, but 7 years of crew members bickering would get annoying because you'd wonder how people this petty and moronic were ever able to survive to adulthood.

If a Borg Cube is attacking, I'm going to worry more about surviving than some jerk who scuffed my shoes last week.
 
Ron Moore is a whiner whose own attempts at a "Space Survival Drama" needed the Universe to be empty of all other life, and even then he cheated several times with random contrivances....and even THEN the show fell apart after 2 seasons.

And I'm sorry, but 7 years of crew members bickering would get annoying because you'd wonder how people this petty and moronic were ever able to survive to adulthood.

If a Borg Cube is attacking, I'm going to worry more about surviving than some jerk who scuffed my shoes last week.
Completely agree with this. Thrust into the situation as they were any sane person would realize they have to work together to survive. What will fighting accomplish? They're still stuck in the DQ facing unknown dangers
 
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