Biggest insulting slap-in-the-face episode for fans?

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:
^^ Re TKG, that's a fair point. I've always enjoyed the episodes that take place in a different environment. I don't know what it is specifically that puts me off TKG, I just remember the feeling I had when watching it was one of ambivalence. I'll have to try and view it again soon to get a better idea of what narked me.

I think humour, depends on where you look, but people taking offence will happen no matter what view you put forward. This is a relatively high-traffic set of boards, the number of people about, someone's bound to take exception to something you say. At the end of the day, this is just a forum, it's difficult to take things too personally, but I've seen already that some do. Perhaps I'm not the best advocate for rational reasoning after yesterday!

The difference with you was, you became aware of it and made amends to keep things correct, most don't. However, you are right. With so many personalities here, someone is bound to take offence to something no matter what it is.

Honestly, I don't think TKG is tops on many Voy. fans list either. Besides, with all the wrongs and dictators in the world today, I think we can find another focus than the Nazi's all the time.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ And then they bought back the Nazis for Enterprise. FFS! When they did that cliffhanger it really was a literal case of the rolling eyes. I can't quite remember now if my original reaction was a "WTF?" or "You've got to be fcuking kidding me!" I suspect, I might have thought one thing, and said the other!

 

[JD]

I'm a fairly big VGR and I really liked TKG. I'd really liked the Hirogen since they first appeared, and I thought the idea of them using the holodeck to hunt the crew was pretty cool. Although my favorite Hirogen moment, is in the DS9 novel, Gateways: Demons of Air and Darkness. In the book a Iconian Gateway opens into the DQ, and a Jem'Hadar who was sent to DS9 by Odo goes through and gets into a big fight with a Hirogen Alpha.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ I don't mind the Hirogen, and as a premise, TKG is sound. There's just something about it, I don't know what at this point, that just doesn't endear itself to me.

I've got that novel to read at some point, in fact I've all of the DS9 relaunch novels to get through sometime soon hopefully!

 

[Forbin]

exodus said:
Do you think it's possable for a submarine to evade an aircraft carrier?

Are you suggesting V'ger can hide underwater from the Borg?

To answer the question: for a little while, but certainly not forever. Sonobuoys, MAD detectors, satellite imagery. Carriers have aircraft dedicated to nothing but finding subs. And these days it's harder than ever for them to hide. And once they're found, they're dead.

 

[exodus]

JD said:
I'm a fairly big VGR and I really liked TKG. I'd really liked the Hirogen since they first appeared, and I thought the idea of them using the holodeck to hunt the crew was pretty cool. Although my favorite Hirogen moment, is in the DS9 novel, Gateways: Demons of Air and Darkness. In the book a Iconian Gateway opens into the DQ, and a Jem'Hadar who was sent to DS9 by Odo goes through and gets into a big fight with a Hirogen Alpha.

I think the problem could be is they weren't really "hunting" them. Hunting someone in what's basically a four walled room, is like shooting fish in a barrel. Even a monkey can do it.

What was even dumber was keeping Harry Kim alive. He was mouthing off to the the Hirogen every chance he got. If the Hirogen see every lifeform as lesser beings, they should have cut his tongue out or slit his throat. His life and that of the rest of the crew shouldn't have value. They could always find more prey to toy with on the holodeck. They also didn't need him to make repairs, they had half a ship that was the Engineering crew. Hell, Be'Lanna & Seven knew more about the job than Harry.

 

[TGTheodore]

I never expected Voyager to end any other way than making it home.

A repercussions episode would have been stupid. The goal was to get home.

They got home.

Fade out.

Now, there was plenty of OTHER junk in "Endgame" to dislike ...

--Ted

 

[number6]

I never had a problem with Endgame. It wasn't even Shades of Grey bad.

 

[Kes the Ocampa]

slap-in-the-face would be

killing off Captain Kirk in 'Generations'. It felt that TPTB were killing off any reminder of Gene from Trek, and trying to take control of the franchise. Also the was no need to kill off Capt. Kirk, there was no point to killing him.


embarrasing old Trek characters. for example Sarek in the TNG episode. Sarek was a cool character but they made him a bumbling mess.
Same for Kes in the episode 'Fury'. I think the writers just wanted to do Warlord II, but ended with a mess of a script that ruined the character.
Tom Riker, I prefered him to William, but they made him a traitor and he got sent to jail. He deserved a better life.

 

[Smiley]

^"Sarek" enriched the character and brought him to the attention of a new generation. He was acting differently due to his Bendii Syndrome, not due to any character flaw.

 

[Angel4576]

Sarek's widely regarded as being one of TNG's and Mark Lenard's finest hours. An excellent script and two absolutely fantastic performances from Stewart and Lenard.

 

[I am not Spock]

I liked TKG. One of VOY's best fourth season episodes.

I've found another episode of VOY which irks me, though. Season six's 'Pathfinder'. It felt like the writers were mocking Trekkies, by having Reg Barclay become 'obsessed' with Voyager. Even at the expense of missing sleep, meals, and chances for socialisation. I found it insulting.

 

[Angel4576]

^^

Poor ol' Reg. Can't make an appearance without upsetting someone. First Hollow Pursuits, and now Pathfinder!

 

[I am not Spock]

In some ways, Pathfinder was just a remake of Hollow Pursuits. Both deal with Reg's holodiction. And both felt like they were insulting Trekkies.

 

[Anwar]

Hollow Pursuits wasn't about mocking Trekkies though, it was about letting your fantasies (which don't have to be about Trek) become so important that your real life suffers.

That can apply to anything and anybody, not just Trek.

 

[exodus]

Anwar said:
Hollow Pursuits wasn't about mocking Trekkies though, it was about letting your fantasies (which don't have to be about Trek) become so important that your real life suffers.

That can apply to anything and anybody, not just Trek.

Exactly.

"Hollow Persuits" can easily be related to people who become obsessed with "War Craft" just as much as people assume it's about Trek.

Barclay is a dork, plain and simple. If you think he's meant to mock Trekkies, then that's your own insecurity talking. Nobody but nobody that sees Trek as anything more than fiction associates Barclay with Trekkies.

 

[Opus]

Anwar said:
It's not like they could use anyone else, nobody gave any of their original aliens (Krenim, Hirogen, Kazon, etc) a chance.

Actually, it was the writers/producers who didn't give them all a chance, just like they didn't give VOY original premise of two crews (Federation and Maquis) needing to work together to get home. VOY is peppered with so many examples of good ideas that were abandoned for cheap ratings stunts and T+A.

 

[Anwar]

No, UPN ordered them to drop the crew tensions because they didn't think it would work.

They also forbade arc stories, serial storytelling, and lasting damage.

They figured arcs and serialization would confuse viewers (they wanted common people to watch, not the dedicated fans) and lasting damage would've meant constantly re-designing the sets and the models of the ship and then dropping those new ones to accommodate any new damage the ship took. They didn't want to spend the money.

NuBSG and Farscape, shows like that weren't being dictated too by a network as oppressive as UPN, and CGI was cheaper by that point.

 

[exodus]

OphaClyde said:

Anwar said:
It's not like they could use anyone else, nobody gave any of their original aliens (Krenim, Hirogen, Kazon, etc) a chance.

Actually, it was the writers/producers who didn't give them all a chance, just like they didn't give VOY original premise of two crews (Federation and Maquis) needing to work together to get home. VOY is peppered with so many examples of good ideas that were abandoned for cheap ratings stunts and T+A.

After fans complained about there being to much Kazon, I can see why'd they didn't want to risk over exposing other aliens. Especially if it wasn't going to get them what the show needed, which was ratings.

The writer/producers choices were all based on the reaction from the shows viewers. Viewership went up for eps. featuring the Borg, so of course they kept using them. Viewership went down when using other aliens, so the writers moved on. T&A got Jeri Ryan on the cover of every major magazine and Seven of Nine became a name most every man nation wide knew, that was great publicity for Voy. It many not have kept Trek fans but it made the show known more so than DS9 with non-fans. Which in turn allowed the show to last a full 7 years.

 

[JD]

exodus said:

Anwar said:
Hollow Pursuits wasn't about mocking Trekkies though, it was about letting your fantasies (which don't have to be about Trek) become so important that your real life suffers.

That can apply to anything and anybody, not just Trek.

Exactly.

"Hollow Persuits" can easily be related to people who become obsessed with "War Craft" just as much as people assume it's about Trek.

Barclay is a dork, plain and simple. If you think he's meant to mock Trekkies, then that's your own insecurity talking. Nobody but nobody that sees Trek as anything more than fiction associates Barclay with Trekkies.

Very true. IMHO it could be applied to WoW alot more easily than Trek.