Biggest insulting slap-in-the-face episode for fans?

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:

exodus said:
Angel4572 , why would you build a ship like Voyager after designing a ship like the Defiant and still make Voyager weaker? Voyager is a scout ship, which means it can travel to areas that Starfleet hasn't explored and in deep space outside of Federation controlled space. That means the ship is designed to support itself when no back up is available. This is why it's fast and can land. Voyager's top cruising speed is 9.5, that's faster than the Defiant. Why, because if Voyager does fall under attack by something it can't beat, it's fast enough to run and get away. Being faster and more manuverable, it's harder to get a direct phazer lock on it.

Given the fact that the Borg were shown on countless occasions to have superior propulsion technology, the fact that Voyager was faster than any other Federation ship is akin to saying that it was the quickest one-legged man in a race against a two-legged sprinter.

It also in no way, shape or form, explains Janeway's ultimate plot-cop-out super torpedoes.

Which is why she did explain it in "Endgame".

Well, I guess if the Borg could catch up to Voyager then the Borg weren't wussified after all. Evenything you've said against Voyager, the Defiant or whatever only backs up the fact that the Borg are still a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Angel4576]

Which brings us back to the original point. Voyager survived due to sloppy deus ex machina writing, which effectively reduced the Borg to the intergalactic equivalent of Larry, Curly and Moe. Superior weapons to Voyager, superior propulsion to Voyager, superior numbers to Voyager, yet time and time again, the good ship poppycock avoids destruction via the thinest of flimsy deus ex machina plot devices, the worse of which being the magic torpedoes.

DS9 had the good sense to avoid using the Borg. A shame that Voyager didn't. After a decent opening with Unity and the Scorpion 2-parter they realised that they were on to a good thing and completely over-exposed them.

 

[Anwar]

It's not like they could use anyone else, nobody gave any of their original aliens (Krenim, Hirogen, Kazon, etc) a chance.

As for their Borg encounters, the only time they fought and won was in "Endgame". The others times they just escaped by the skin of their teeth.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
A majority of Treks fans don't even know what the "rules" are.

The Borg are a great example of what I'm talking about. When first introduced to the Borg in TNG Q tells them [and the audience watching] they are only interested in technology, biological life forms are irrelevant. Then the Borg are put to sleep for gods sake as the the cliff hanger solution to their distruction later in TNG. Later a Borg is liberated from the collective.

WE move forward to First Contact [while a good film in general] and we learn the Borg know how to time travel as the solution. [I hate time travel stories in general and they're not logical solutions]

Then by Voyager the Borg seemed to be obsessed with humanity [not the technology] and seem easily out smarted.

In short, the consistency within the 'Borg Universe' isn't treated the same.

 

[DarthTom]

Angel4576 said:
DS9 had the good sense to avoid using the Borg. A shame that Voyager didn't. After a decent opening with Unity and the Scorpion 2-parter they realised that they were on to a good thing and completely over-exposed them.

The problem the show had was the original premise of the show, what I call 'Lost in Space Star Trek Voyager' is that to have an ongoing threat they needed one that could travel vastly faster than your traditional alien could. The Borg were one of the few.

In terms of the Studio's decision to use them, I'd imagine much of that had to do with the hope that they'd attract back the number of viewers they got using the Borg in TNG.

 

[exodus]

Anwar said:
It's not like they could use anyone else, nobody gave any of their original aliens (Krenim, Hirogen, Kazon, etc) a chance.

As for their Borg encounters, the only time they fought and won was in "Endgame". The others times they just escaped by the skin of their teeth.

Exactly.

What cracks me up is how people completely ignore that the Borg gave Voyager a ratings boost everytime they showed up. "Voyager wussified the Borg", yet viewers still tuned in everytime only to nikpick it years later.

 

[Angel4576]

Anwar said:
It's not like they could use anyone else, nobody gave any of their original aliens (Krenim, Hirogen, Kazon, etc) a chance.

As for their Borg encounters, the only time they fought and won was in "Endgame". The others times they just escaped by the skin of their teeth.

Species 8472 were interesting. Soon as they realised that, they just completely ignored them, and decided to go back to the well for the Borg. Again.....

 

[Alidar Jarok]

One thing to say in favor of Dues ex Machina is its always been the hallmark of the Borg. The Borg can't be defeated on their own, so an alternative is needed. Q was one in Q-Who, putting them to sleep may or may not have been one in BOBW (I'm too tired to think what exactly might qualify as one here). Endgame had Janeway from the Future.

I, Borg and Descent didn't do a terrible job, imo, because they didn't deal with the full collective. I thought Scorpion did a nice job as well, using 8472 as a way to shelter Voyager from the Borg (I got the sense that the crew was learning how to deal with the Borg, but had to pretty much rely on the advantages of controlling the ship, which still were almost overcome by a handful of Borg).

Personally, the stories that bug me the most are ones like Dark Frontier, where the Borg act stupid, instead of machines with one single purpose.

 

[Anwar]

Right, UPN just wanted a Trek show to make them a ton of $$$, not a well-written show. So they blocked/overruled any new ideas the writers had for the show because they were afraid anything not formula wouldn't work, and they kept piling stuff they thought would work onto the show to make cash (sexy bimbo char, Borg, etc).

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
A majority of Treks fans don't even know what the "rules" are.

The Borg are a great example of what I'm talking about. When first introduced to the Borg in TNG Q tells them [and the audience watching] they are only interested in technology, biological life forms are irrelevant. Then the Borg are put to sleep for gods sake as the the cliff hanger solution to their distruction later in TNG. Later a Borg is liberated from the collective.

WE move forward to First Contact [while a good film in general] and we learn the Borg know how to time travel as the solution. [I hate time travel stories in general and they're not logical solutions]

Then by Voyager the Borg seemed to be obsessed with humanity [not the technology] and seem easily out smarted.

In short, the consistency within the 'Borg Universe' isn't treated the same.

Same applied to Klingon's from Kirk's time to Picards, just like The Romulans, the Cardies, etc. It happens in all sci-fi from comic books to TV shows. It's part of fleshing out characters and finding one soild idea that works for them.

It's why Picard went from book nerd to action hero.

 

[Anwar]

Difference being that the Borg were made to be the No #1 threat to the Galaxy, while the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Dominion were made to be series antagonists. Using the Borg like that cheapens their "Invincible threat" aura.

Of course, they didn't have a choice since nobody gave VOY's aliens a chance.

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:

Anwar said:
It's not like they could use anyone else, nobody gave any of their original aliens (Krenim, Hirogen, Kazon, etc) a chance.

As for their Borg encounters, the only time they fought and won was in "Endgame". The others times they just escaped by the skin of their teeth.

Species 8472 were interesting. Soon as they realised that, they just completely ignored them, and decided to go back to the well for the Borg. Again.....

Species 8472 cost money to create and use. You can't use a creature that the budget doesn't cover if people aren't supporting the show. A shows budget is supported by sponsors, the more viewers a show has the more sponsors the bigger a budget the show gets.

Why do you think Species 8472 only showed up during the season premiere and sweeps week?

 

[exodus]

Anwar said:
Difference being that the Borg were made to be the No #1 threat to the Galaxy, while the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Dominion were made to be series antagonists. Using the Borg like that cheapens their "Invincible threat" aura.

Of course, they didn't have a choice since nobody gave VOY's aliens a chance.

But they weren't, it was once again fans not listening close enough to what's being explained too them.

When Q introduced us to the Borg, he said they were "one" of many threats in the galaxy. He never said they were the 1# worst. Fans just assumed it and ran with it, much like Star Wars fans did with Boba Fett.

 

[Anwar]

That's why Farscape was cancelled, it was really expensive mostly due to the aliens.

See, at this point Paramount was in full "Trek is a cash-cow" mindset. And the approach to milking a cash-cow is to make as much money by spending as little money as possible.

That's why there are so many bumpy forehead aliens, they didn't want to waste good money and time on making cool alien designs on races that were likely to only ever be seen once.

It's also why they didn't hire lots of sci-fi writers as much as TOS did, because they'd have to pay them as well as paying their regular writers so they figured it would be cheaper just to use their regulars all the time.

 

[exodus]

Anwar said:
That's why Farscape was cancelled, it was really expensive mostly due to the aliens.

See, at this point Paramount was in full "Trek is a cash-cow" mindset. And the approach to milking a cash-cow is to make as much money by spending as little money as possible.

That's why there are so many bumpy forehead aliens, they didn't want to waste good money and time on making cool alien designs on races that were likely to only ever be seen once.

It's also why they didn't hire lots of sci-fi writers as much as TOS did, because they'd have to pay them as well as paying their regular writers so they figured it would be cheaper just to use their regulars all the time.

Bingo. :thumbsup:

People think Trek's budget was endless and everybody involved was well paid, that's a lie. Most writers barely break $32 thousand a year, that's nothing. Which means the producers aren't probably getting more than $70. For a producer, that's chump change too.

 

[DarthTom]

Anwar said:
See, at this point Paramount was in full "Trek is a cash-cow" mindset. And the approach to milking a cash-cow is to make as much money by spending as little money as possible.

If you were a shareholder of Viacom you'd demand they milk that cow until there was none left. That's what people do when they want a return on their investment.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

Anwar said:
See, at this point Paramount was in full "Trek is a cash-cow" mindset. And the approach to milking a cash-cow is to make as much money by spending as little money as possible.

If you were a shareholder of Viacom you'd demand they milk that cow until there was none left. That's what people do when they want a return on their investment.

I was and Viacom has tons of other properties to make money off of than running Trek into the ground. The problem was trying to mass market and merchendise a show that only appeals to a certain group of people. The mass public is fimilar with Trek but not huge fans of it because of the stereotypes connected to it. Trek has never been seen as cool as Star Wars is, so the fan base isn't as large.

They didn't understand that there was never any big profit to be made off of Trek. The Borg were the only things that made Trek cool to the mass public. The fact that Trek fans are disturbed by a sexy woman in a catsuit only backs up why the mass public finds Trek & it's fans uncool and don't support it openly.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
I was and Viacom has tons of other properties to make money off of than running Trek into the ground. The problem was trying to mass market and merchendise a show that only appeals to a certain group of people. The mass public is fimilar with Trek but not huge fans of it because of the stereotypes connected to it. Trek has never been seen as cool as Star Wars is, so the fan base isn't as large.

Every Viacom shareholder wants the studio to market every one of its 'products' as hard as they can. I remember thread after thread of complaints on the cost of the DVD's when first realeased of the series. Of course they did that, because they knew that fanatical Trek fans would pay $150 for one seasons DVD's.

In any case, we're falling off topic - sorry.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
I was and Viacom has tons of other properties to make money off of than running Trek into the ground. The problem was trying to mass market and merchendise a show that only appeals to a certain group of people. The mass public is fimilar with Trek but not huge fans of it because of the stereotypes connected to it. Trek has never been seen as cool as Star Wars is, so the fan base isn't as large.

Every Viacom shareholder wants the studio to market every one of its 'products' as hard as they can. I remember thread after thread of complaints on the cost of the DVD's when first realeased of the series. Of course they did that, because they knew that fanatical Trek fans would pay $150 for one seasons DVD's.

In any case, we're falling off topic - sorry.

Yep, because nobody outside the Trek zealot group was going to pay or afford $150 a season for it.

Notice how many copies were resold on ebay after they've been burned. Even some that paid full price weren't keeping them, they wanted some of that $150 back.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
Yep, because nobody outside the Trek zealot group was going to pay or afford $150 a season for it.

We'll your rappin with an idiot [me] that bought all 7 seasons of DS9 at full price.