Biggest insulting slap-in-the-face episode for fans?
- Thread starter I am not Spock
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You say that like it would have been a bad thing.
The show got better in S4 and S5, so killing it then would've been kind of a shame. Ending it by S5 would've been better for both us and the cast/crew. And since Biller wouldn't have been around then I'd guess Braga would've either done it himself or found someone better than Biller to write it. Braga's original idea for the finale seemed okay.
All this ignores the fact the Borg are not a well thought out race, but merely a plot device. In TNG they are a seemingly unstoppable enemy because that's what the writers wanted them to be. They were powerful beyond reason to give our heroes a truly formidable challenge.
By the time Voyager rolled around they were the villains of the week. Just another obstacle for Janeway to get around. I think they were used in Voyager because people like Borg episodes. The writers didn’t consider how it didn’t fit in well with their previous appearances.
So there you have it, they were too powerful at the beginning, and possibly too weak at the end.
By the time Voyager rolled around they were the villains of the week. Just another obstacle for Janeway to get around. I think they were used in Voyager because people like Borg episodes. The writers didn’t consider how it didn’t fit in well with their previous appearances.
So there you have it, they were too powerful at the beginning, and possibly too weak at the end.
For the Borg to become Voyager's Klingons they had to become Klingons (in the TOS sense): simple as that.
Well, the Borg were the only race that it would make sense to be recurring. VOY was always on the move meaning they could only fight the Kazon, Krenim and other races for so long before moving beyond their spheres of influence or logistics.
The Borg however have superior FTL to VOY so they could always go after them, since they're all over the Galaxy in certain regions of it or can get to anywhere very fast.
Unfortunately, the Borg are fundamentally boring as a recurring enemy.
They should've disabled VOY's warp drive for the first season(s) so there would be a logical reason we kept meeting the same races over and over, to better flesh them out so VOY might have better original races than have to rely on the Borg over and over.
With NuBSG it's different in that the Cylons' mission is to wipe out the Galactica fleet so they clearly would keep going as long as it took to wipe them out. The Kazon aren't advanced enough to do that and the other races have no real stake in VOY's contined survival so they just let them bugger off.
The Borg however have superior FTL to VOY so they could always go after them, since they're all over the Galaxy in certain regions of it or can get to anywhere very fast.
Unfortunately, the Borg are fundamentally boring as a recurring enemy.
They should've disabled VOY's warp drive for the first season(s) so there would be a logical reason we kept meeting the same races over and over, to better flesh them out so VOY might have better original races than have to rely on the Borg over and over.
With NuBSG it's different in that the Cylons' mission is to wipe out the Galactica fleet so they clearly would keep going as long as it took to wipe them out. The Kazon aren't advanced enough to do that and the other races have no real stake in VOY's contined survival so they just let them bugger off.
I'm going to get hammered for this but I actually thought the Borg got more interesting during Voyager than they ever had been in TNG. Sure, they weren't the unstoppable force, but the fear that the Borg inspired was always in part not because of their invincibility per se but the idea of assimilation and the loss of one's individuality.
In regards to why Voyager was able to withstand Borg attaacks I have two theories: First, throughout their encounters, the Borg Queen and Janeway had a kind of cat and mouse powerplay dance going on to see who could outsmart the other, which would be an incentive for the Queen to let Janeway live, to make it more interesting. Second, I don't think anyone has mentioned seven of nine yet. Seven, having been Borg, knows their strategies, their weaknesses, the way they think, their systems, and undoubtedly upgraded some of Voyager's defensive systems with Borg technology, as could be adapted to starfleet technology.
*Speaking of making the borg seem weak, in BOBW, after beating an armada of 40 ships, the cube arrives at earth only to be destroyed because the Enterprise made the drones go to sleep??? Talk about a letdown. I never fully understood how that was supposed to have happened, but if it was that easy, why didn't Starfleet make them "sleep" every time they ran into the Borg??
In regards to why Voyager was able to withstand Borg attaacks I have two theories: First, throughout their encounters, the Borg Queen and Janeway had a kind of cat and mouse powerplay dance going on to see who could outsmart the other, which would be an incentive for the Queen to let Janeway live, to make it more interesting. Second, I don't think anyone has mentioned seven of nine yet. Seven, having been Borg, knows their strategies, their weaknesses, the way they think, their systems, and undoubtedly upgraded some of Voyager's defensive systems with Borg technology, as could be adapted to starfleet technology.
*Speaking of making the borg seem weak, in BOBW, after beating an armada of 40 ships, the cube arrives at earth only to be destroyed because the Enterprise made the drones go to sleep??? Talk about a letdown. I never fully understood how that was supposed to have happened, but if it was that easy, why didn't Starfleet make them "sleep" every time they ran into the Borg??
The drones all went to sleep, and either they realized what had happened and started a self-destruct to keep them out of Federation hands, or the over-charging of all those drones caused them to explode simultaneously, which blew up the ship (there's a lot of drones in there).
^^ It's a fair point re Seven of Nine, however, we're again working under the assumption that the Borg are incredibly thick and wouldn't have taken measures to counteract her knowledge, or even used it against her and Voyager.
Re BOBW, they couldn't repeat the 'go to sleep' tactic as it only worked the first time because Picard/Locutus was hooked into the collective consciousness, and as spokesman for the Borg, was actually in a position to issue commands.
Re BOBW, they couldn't repeat the 'go to sleep' tactic as it only worked the first time because Picard/Locutus was hooked into the collective consciousness, and as spokesman for the Borg, was actually in a position to issue commands.
Since we're talking about the Borg now i'll throw in my two gold coins:
The Borg were neutered in Voyager.. no question about it (at least from my point of view).
Twice the Borg have managed to enter the Earth system and the second time after Starfleet knew about them and had time to study their technology and yet they were losing ships left and right against a single cube.. ships that were more powerful than a single Intrepid.
It would have been ok and needed if the Voyager encountered the Borg.. they were in their Quadrant after all but the Voyager got off way too easy each time, even pulling one over the Borg numerous times.
This is what neutered them.. the Borg have weaponry and other technology far more advanced than the Federation and they are constantly upgrading so being beaten by a single small scout ship is just beyond suspension of disbelief.
I'm ok that we we got more insight into the borg and the one episode where they show them assimilating a planet was one of the best Voyager episodes if you ask me but overall they got a kick in the balls and a wedgie on top.
The Borg were neutered in Voyager.. no question about it (at least from my point of view
).Twice the Borg have managed to enter the Earth system and the second time after Starfleet knew about them and had time to study their technology and yet they were losing ships left and right against a single cube.. ships that were more powerful than a single Intrepid.
It would have been ok and needed if the Voyager encountered the Borg.. they were in their Quadrant after all but the Voyager got off way too easy each time, even pulling one over the Borg numerous times.
This is what neutered them.. the Borg have weaponry and other technology far more advanced than the Federation and they are constantly upgrading so being beaten by a single small scout ship is just beyond suspension of disbelief.
I'm ok that we we got more insight into the borg and the one episode where they show them assimilating a planet was one of the best Voyager episodes if you ask me but overall they got a kick in the balls and a wedgie on top.
God I fuckin' hate that word "apologist" and how it's used around here.DarthTom said:
I think you should change your screen name exodus to the Trek BBS's official Star Trek Voyager apologist when the stories suck or they break with canon.
Just because someone can explain something others may not understand doesn't mean you're "apologizing" for anything dealing with the show. It does however mean I have a brain and can think outside the box. This shit is fiction and not unexplainable.
No, however if I used a biological weapon I'd probably stand a better chance.
Do you think it's possable for a submarine to evade an aircraft carrier?
Angel4572 , why would you build a ship like Voyager after designing a ship like the Defiant and still make Voyager weaker? Voyager is a scout ship, which means it can travel to areas that Starfleet hasn't explored and in deep space outside of Federation controlled space. That means the ship is designed to support itself when no back up is available. This is why it's fast and can land. Voyager's top cruising speed is 9.5, that's faster than the Defiant. Why, because if Voyager does fall under attack by something it can't beat, it's fast enough to run and get away. Being faster and more manuverable, it's harder to get a direct phazer lock on it.
I never had a real problem rationalizing the "weakening" of the Borg for a number of reasons. They were a plot device, as pointed out by another poster. However, in the Trek storyline, they had been effected by a number of things - Picard apparently knows everything about them, and can still hear them and know anything they do. I would assume Seven of Nine also had this ability. This, together with the effects of Hugh and his followers, Lore, the battle with the interdimensional species, etc. may have served to make them much less formidable then originally seen. Actually, it might have been interesting to see the decay of the Borg as a result of all these things - a metaphor for the dangers of supressing the individual, or of the hubris of preceived invincibility. Of course, you would need good writers for something like that.
However, fiction should follow its own rules and sometimes Trek has trouble even following it's own rules. There are hundreds of examples.
ST Enterprise is riddled with many examples, the appearance of the Borg, Ferengi, the Romulans.
ST Nemesis is the absolute worst at following Trek's own fictional rules. And sometimes Voyager does it as well. Some of their dealings with the Borg, IMHO are an example of this.
And I was just being a smart ass man.
If fiction really had rules it wouldn't be fiction, it would be fact.
I know you were being a smart ass, I got it. Still I just HATE when people use that word just because you try to explain something from you understand from events on the show. I don't think it makes anyone an apologist, it just means you can pay attention.
A majority of Treks fans don't even know what the "rules" are.DarthTom said:
exodus said:
If fiction really had rules it wouldn't be fiction, it would be fact.
I disagree. When one writes a story it should stay consistent to its own established rules. Trek has trouble doing that often.
Given the fact that the Borg were shown on countless occasions to have superior propulsion technology, the fact that Voyager was faster than any other Federation ship is akin to saying that it was the quickest one-legged man in a race against a two-legged sprinter.
It also in no way, shape or form, explains Janeway's ultimate plot-cop-out super torpedoes.
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