Big mistake in The Empire Strikes Back??

[Mage]

Now, it has been decades since I've seen the original version of Empire.
But in the most current version, Vader is shocked when The Emperor tells him that they are searching for the son of Skywalker.
However, I am actually watching it right now and paused the movie, on Disney+.
Early in the movie, when the data from the Hoth probe is reviewed and the scans of the shield generator is revealed, Vader says that's where the rebels are, and that Skywalker is with them. He uses the name Skywalker BEFORE the Emperor reveals that the one that destroyed the Death Star is the Son of Anakin Skywalker.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It was also stated in the opening crawl that Vader is sending the probe droids to search for Skywalker:

The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space....​

As for the conversation between Vader and the Emperor, Vader displays no surprise when he hears what the Emperor says, he is not at all surprised. He simply asks the Emperor how it's possible that the one who destroyed the Death Star is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker. It's like playing tennis, he puts the ball back in the Emperor's court. When the prequel finally fleshes out the backstory in Ep III, we know that Palpatine told Vader that he killed Padmé, which would imply that the children did not survive either. That's the big "Noooo" scene. So, it would make sense that Vader would display loyalty to his master (whom he must obey), by not directly questioning information given by the Emperor, unless the Emperor himself contradicts it. So, it would simply seem that, up to this point, the Emperor has not acknowledged to Vader that Luke is alive, not that Vader doesn't already know it.

Anyway, that's my take, unless it turns out I'm overlooking something.

 

[David cgc]

"I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker," and, "How is that possible?" were added in the 2004 DVD Special Edition, it wasn't in the original version of the scene. Vader was still playing dumb, not volunteering information (he makes it clear he already knows about Luke Skywalker when he mentions knowing he was with Obi-Wan), and then retroactively suggesting that he do what he'd already been doing, but he's not as directly confrontational as in the extra lines added to tie in to RotS.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

"I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker," and, "How is that possible?" were added in the 2004 DVD Special Edition, it wasn't in the original version of the scene. Vader was still playing dumb, not volunteering information (he makes it clear he already knows about Luke Skywalker when he mentions knowing he was with Obi-Wan), and then retroactively suggesting that he do what he'd already been doing, but he's not as directly confrontational as in the extra lines added to tie in to RotS.

Yep. And neither the opening crawl nor the probe droid report scene were changed from the original (at least in any way that matters to the plot or story).

 

[JD]

The 2015 comics series had a whole storyline set between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back with Vader learning that Luke is alive and was the one who destroyed the Death Star. Since that's considered part of the current canon, that would mean that Vader had already known about Luke for 3 years when he had that conversation with The Emperor.

 

[Reverend]

Now, it has been decades since I've seen the original version of Empire.
But in the most current version, Vader is shocked when The Emperor tells him that they are searching for the son of Skywalker.
However, I am actually watching it right now and paused the movie, on Disney+.
Early in the movie, when the data from the Hoth probe is reviewed and the scans of the shield generator is revealed, Vader says that's where the rebels are, and that Skywalker is with them. He uses the name Skywalker BEFORE the Emperor reveals that the one that destroyed the Death Star is the Son of Anakin Skywalker.

For me, that scene is ALL about the subtext and reading between the lines. It's not about Palpatine sharing new information with Vader, it's about Palpatine finding out what Vader is actually up to out there, and very firmly bringing him to heel. Vader of course plays dumb and deflects, and of course Palpatine isn't buying it for a second. Anakin may be cunning, but he's not the master manipulator that Palpatine is.
You can pretty much break the whole conversation down line by line and infer the subtext of each statement: -

Emperor​

There is a great disturbance in the Force.​

(He knows what Vader's up to.)​

​

Vader​

I have felt it.​

(Anakin playing it dumb as ever when caught out.)​

​

Emperor​

We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.​

(Testing to see Vader's reaction to that name, and the implication that Vader already knows this full well.)​

​

Vader​

How is that possible?​

(Possible as in "You told me I killed Padme.")​

​

Emperor​

Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.​

(There's a little bit of "oh grow up!" in that, but also calling him out for his own attempts as obfuscation. Plus of course an implied threat at the end there. The "us" in this context just means the two of them as Master and Apprentice; as in Palpatine is saying that if anyone's getting a new apprentice, it's him.)​

​

Vader​

He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.​

(Here he's implying that Palpatine is acting out of fear; that he genuinely considers Luke a viable threat, even though he's an untrained bokken padawan with no Master . . . that they know of anyway.)​

​

Emperor​

The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.​

(Palpatine is dropping the pretence here and just straight up telling Vader he knows exactly what Vader's plan is and that it's doomed from the start.)​

​

Vader​

If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.​

(This is mostly an attempt to buy time. So long as Vader can at least give the appearance of handing Luke over, he has a chance of lulling Palpatine into a sense of security.)​

​

Emperor​

Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?​

(Palpatine of course sees right though this attempt at manipulation, and is basically humouring him at this point.)​

​

Vader​

He will join us or die, master.​

(This can be taken as just perfunctory, but one could also infer that Vader is going to make sure Luke turns to *his* side, or die. He has no intention of letting Palpatine get to him first.)​

There's a few other context clues as to what's going in Palpatine's demeanor.
Firstly: he's almost in a weird trance-like haze like he's only half-awake. Remember that it's been three and a bit years since Yavin and he's just now come to this realisation, both of Luke's identity (which Vader must have been activly sur pressing for a while) and what Vader is *really* doing out there with his fleet. Palpatine must have been in deep meditation with the dark side for a *long* time trying to ferret this out. That he didn't even pause to compose himself better before calling Vader up speaks volumes to his sense of urgency and how threatened he is by it all.

Secondly: Once Palpatine makes contact, Vader immediately breaks off his pursuit and moves the ship out of the asteroids. He knows he's been caught out and that any delay or attempt to evade Palpatine will result in his fleet being taken away from him. His only recourse is to try to placate his Master.

Thirdly and perhaps most importantly: The goal of the Battle of Hoth was never to destroy the rebels. Vader doesn't care about the rebels; they're just an obstacle (as are clumsy Admirals.) He's there to extract Luke; nothing more, nothing less. It's why he's leading the charge into the base in person, why he bee-lines it to the Falcon, and why he basically ignores the other fleeing ships and had his whole damn fleet braving a dense asteroid field to chase down one rinky-dink junkheap of a freighter.

On top of all of that; that whole conversation informs not only Vader's sense of urgency in the third act, and his crushed non-reaction to Luke and the Falcon slipping though his grasp at the end (didn't even bother to kill Piett, just wandered off dejectedly), but it also informs his whole demeanour in RotJ. By then, Palpatine has him on a VERY short leash, so he's essentially hopeless. His window for turning and recruiting Luke has closed. His plan has already failed. He's basically resigned to the fact that either he's getting replace by Luke, or he's killing Luke for his Emperor, and continuing on his miserable existence. Indeed one could infer his turn back to the light actually starts at the end of 'Empire' as he walks off the bridge, having let go of his rage (at least in the moment.) There's a reason why Vader in RotJ seems so broken and the least wrathful we've ever seen him. He still has his hatred for himself and for Palpatine, but even the latter is slipping fast as he looses any meaning in continuing on.

 

[fireproof78]

On top of all of that; that whole conversation informs not only Vader's sense of urgency in the third act, and his crushed non-reaction to Luke and the Falcon slipping though his grasp at the end (didn't even bother to kill Piett, just wandered off dejectedly), but it also informs his whole demeanour in RotJ. By then, Palpatine has him on a VERY short leash, so he's essentially hopeless. His window for turing and recruiting Luke has closed. His plan has already failed. He's basically resigned to the fact that either he's getting replace by Luke, or he's killing Luke for his Emperor, and continuing on his miserable existance. Indeed one could inferr his turn back to the light actually starts at the end of 'Empire' as he walks off the bridge, having let go of his rage (at least in the moment.) There's a reason why Vader in RotJ seems so broken and the least wrathful we've ever seen him. He still has his hatred for himself and for Palpatine, but even the latter is slipping fast as he looses any meaning in continuing on.

This is a good point, and why I think ESB works so much better once you have ROTJ. You have so much more context to Vader and possible motivations driving him for his obsessive hunt with Skywalker than before.

 

[Ithekro]

I wonder if that same concepts can be applied to to original version of that conversation but still knowing that Vader knows exactly who and what Luke Skywalker is from the start of the film.

 

[David cgc]

I wonder if that same concepts can be applied to to original version of that conversation but still knowing that Vader knows exactly who and what Luke Skywalker is from the start of the film.

Sure. The additions seem to only be to address that Vader explicitly "knows" that his child died in the version of events we saw in RotS, and needs to make some comment addressing that discrepancy. Before everything was nailed down, when the movie first came out (and in the first SE), it was possible that Vader always knew of Luke's existence on some level, or that his mother had simply vanished and her fate and that of the child (if Vader knew she was pregnant) was unknown to him, so it wasn't necessarily evidence Palpatine had lied to him when this Skywalker kid who looks suspiciously like the Hero With No Fear came on the scene.

 

[Reverend]

From what I recall from what Lucas said at the time; the idea when they were making 'Jedi' was that "Anakin's wife" went into hiding when she fell pregnant. Then when she gave birth, she gave Luke to Obi-Wan, who left him with his brother Owen, while she went to Alderaan with Leia, but died young due to complications from plot contrivance.

I think in that version of events Anakin's marriage not a secret, as Lucas hadn't settled on the whole "no attachments" idea yet. Also; Anakin's turn happens during the Clone War, but he manages to keep it secret, and it's only after the war that he started luring Jedi away and murdering them one at a time. At a certain point Obi-Wan finds out what he's doing, they fight, and Anakin ends up in a lava pit etc. etc. I forget if his wife fleeing came before, or concurrent with the confrontation with Obi-Wan. I think it's possible she the one that finds out he's a murderer and goes to Obi-Wan, and things proceed from there. There may also have been a version of events where she's already had both twins (presumably in hiding) and they're both 6 months old when they're split up.

In all that I think the intended implication is that Vader had no idea that he had a son until after the events of ANH. I mean once he hears the name "Skywalker" and realise he was the kid travelling with Obi-Wan (and presumably gets a good enough look at him to confirm the family resemblance), it doesn't exactly take a galaxy class detective to connect the dots.

 

[Set Harth]

it doesn't exactly take a galaxy class detective

 

[Tallguy]

Believe me, nobody who saw the film in 1980 read that Vader was "obsessed with finding young Skywalker" thought "Gee. THAT'S weird. I wonder why that is? There must be an ulterior motive going on here!"

Luke Skywalker BLEW UP THE DEATH STAR. Oh, and also broke into the Death Star's detention facilities and rescued Princess Leia. While he was delivering the stolen plans of the Death Star to the Rebellion.

He would have been considered kind of a big deal.

 

[DonIago]

Does Vader have any way of explicitly linking the two events?

I guess if Owen and Beru were interrogated they might have given up his name, but if Vader knew there was someone going around named Skywalker in ANH then you'd think that might have changed his handling of matters. Otherwise, I think he just knows that a group of people "escaped" the Death Star with Leia and that subsequently a hotshot pilot blew it up.

If anything, I could see Vader thinking Han Solo was the big deal initially.

 

[Tallguy]

Does Vader have any way of explicitly linking the two events?

It is the least ridiculous leap that one has to take when considering the Skywalker lineage. (Especially in 1980.) Just read it as "The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker the Hero from the Last Movie".

 

[DonIago]

It sounds like what you're saying is that he doesn't have an explicit way of linking the two events.

 

[Nerys Myk]

His CSI team used the security footage to ID the perps.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

His CSI team used the security footage to ID the perps.

They may have had to hit enhance a few times, but it turned out it wasn't a problem.

 

[Tallguy]

It sounds like what you're saying is that he doesn't have an explicit way of linking the two events.

This is the guy that didn't know what was up when his troops torched his mom's old house and killed his step-brother.

 

[Set Harth]

They may have had to hit enhance a few times, but it turned out it wasn't a problem.

There's a guy who's real good at that... looks kind of like Han Solo...

 

[Reverend]

This is the guy that didn't know what was up when his troops torched his mom's old house and killed his step-brother.

Why would he know, or even care to know about that? By the time that happened he'd already left to bring Leia to Tarkin, so it's not like he was overseeing the operation. Even that I doubt it would have even been filed as a report after action in any detail if he cared enough to read one, ever.

The Imperials likely just killed them and burned the place on the off-chance they might have come into contact with classified materials, or stashing them somewhere in the structure. Easier to torch the place than take the time to tear it down to the last brick.
They probably didn't mention framing the Tuskins for the Jawa slaughter either. Indeed odds are that bit of business was more likely done by the local garrison than the detachment he sent down, since how would off-world troops even know, or care enough to do that?
It's also not unreasonable to assume that the Empire burned a bunch of different farms, settlements and encampments back along the last day and a half of the sandcrawler's route, just as a matter of course. No reason to think the Lars one was worthy of note. To the Empire, this was just another Tuesday . . .