Beyond question (asking for someone else)

[Timo]

Yeah this line of thinking here makes a lot of sense. Kirk does state in the Captain's log that they're going to Yorktown for reprovisioning. The trip to Altamid was probably done on a skeleton crew, because they were expecting to just pick up a few survivors, not deal with an attack.

Indeed. In any case, the timepoint at which we need to cut down on the number of people under Kirk's command is not before the Franklin liftoff. It's before the beam-out rescue operation, because there isn't time there for a great number of beamings, and we know the upper limit for beamees per shot.

It could be earlier than that, of course, because we only see a very small number of prisoners, yet all the key characters including the random keeper of the big secret are among these. Combat casualties are one way to go, but left-at-Yorktown works even better, considering the smallish number of lifepods we see, and the apparent lack of pods bigger than the one-man bridge specials. Although there could be a lot we don't get to see in that visual mess.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Pretty sure the MACO were the primary offensive force against the Xindi and the Romulans in those wars. I'm not really an expert with those though -- I'm going off primarily what's given in Beyond since I've seen it several times, and the smattering of Memory Alpha I've looked at.

@The Wormhole, mind if I bring you in? IIRC you seem to have a firm grasp of MACO and those pre-Starfleet wars/organizations. Thoughts?

Not really much to go on here. Earth's conflict with the Xindi is pretty much shown in its entirety in Enterprise's third season, Earth's only involvement was the NX-01 and its MACO detachment sent to the Expanse. Edison almost certainly wasn't among them, so he never would have fought against the Xindi. He could have lost friends in their attack on Florida, I guess. We really don't know squat about the Romulan War, canonically speaking, but it stands to reason the MACOs would be involved.

Of course, then we branch off into matters related to the correlation between the Prime and Kelvin verse's pasts. In the Prime Universe, since humans never saw Romulans during the War, we can deduce there was no ground combat, thus very little for the MACOs to do. Although, if we are sticking to the fiction that Starfleet isn't a military, than it seems pretty stupid for a War to be fought by the explorers while the actual military just performs guard duty or something. But anyway, if we get back to the idea that the past of the Kelvin verse is different than Prime's past then everything we know about the Xindi conflict and the Romulan War is different. And for what it's worth, in Trek XI everyone including the Kelvin's crew recognized Nero was a Romulan, as opposed to thinking "what's the problem with this tattooed emoting Vulcan?"

Another issue to consider is that canonically the MACOs never had combat experience prior to the Expanse mission. But then, the novels ignored this and had the MACOs acting as a defense force protecting Earth colonies, which sometimes did include fighting aliens.

The sad truth of the matter is there is very little to go on for the MACOs, who were really just introduced as something new for Enterprise's third season, and quickly just became the NX-01's security force who wore different uniforms. Hell, throughout Enterprise's last two seasons aside from Reed, I think we only see two other Starfleet security officers on the NX-01. And then in the Mirror Universe, Reed was a MACO anyway. Ironically, in the early stages of the show, security on the NX-01 was to be provided by the Starfleet Marine Corps with Reed being a Major, and Paramount forced this to be changed to ordinary Starfleet Security as seen in the other Treks with Reed being a Starfleet officer. And yet, by the third season we had essentially had Marines taking over the ship's security, even though they still answered to a Starfleet officer.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's the only thing we ever saw them do.

We only saw them do it ONCE, when Enterprise was being chased down by Duras at the edge of the Sol system. Beyond that, we've seen them testing NX-Alpha, building Columbia, exploring shipwrecks in antarctica, investigating crimes against foreign nationals, and transporting VIPs to and from research posts.

They have such a low emphasis on combat readiness that their main exploration vessel isn't even properly armed when it goes into space, its main weapons barely function and the more advanced weapons it's supposed to be carrying have to be assembled in the field. To the extent that combat is even one of Earth Starfleet's mission roles, it's not one they really take seriously.

But Archer's Heroes are no better at exploration than they are at combat

While it's true that Archer et al basically suck at everything in Season 1, exploration is the one thing they actually TRY to get right. They don't really care about combat and aren't woefully unprepared for the very little amount of fighting they DO end up doing. At least they THINK they're prepared for their exploration mission, wrong as they may be.

whereas Starfleet ships other than the Enterprise can fight Klingons to a standstill on first try.

A Klingon. Four against one is pretty even odds when you're flying into a system that's just suffered a massive terrorist attack and therefore is on extremely high alert. Those four ships in "The Expanse" were possibly the only four ships in the entire fleet armed with anything bigger than a grenade launcher.

The question then becomes, who conducts the offworld operations for the federal government?

Starfleet does. Earth is statutorily restricted from operating in interstellar space for some reason but Starfleet can act on theirs (and the Federation's) behalf. Probably why the MACOs were assimilated into Starfleet when their ships and resources were no longer needed.

That's a bit circular - if Starfleet's good at covert action, we won't learn about it!

But we DO know about it. That's what the "first contact" missions are all about, plus a fair number of Kirk and Spock's missions in TOS fall into this category. So starfleet is at least as good at this as MACO used to be.

And if the MACO truly need to obfuscate, they sure shouldn't build or buy their own ships - rentals or stolen ships are much more difficult to track down.

And Starfleet has been known to do this too. Again, that skill set plus their operational background probably got transferred to Starfleet to prevent an operational overlap of capabilities. Starfleet can (now) do everything MACO can do, so MACO is no longer needed as a separate entity.

We never actually hear of any MACO ships.

We never hear of toilets either, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[Timo]

We only saw them do it ONCE, when Enterprise was being chased down by Duras at the edge of the Sol system. Beyond that, we've seen them testing NX-Alpha, building Columbia, exploring shipwrecks in antarctica, investigating crimes against foreign nationals, and transporting VIPs to and from research posts.

Granted that. But it's classic armed forces stuff for today in any case, save perhaps for the "exploring shipwrecks in Antarctica" bit.

...Which only happens for all of forty onscreen seconds because the real, civilian explorers decide to "contact Starfleet", "transmit their findings to Starfleet" etc. It's not a case of them interacting with their bosses, but asking for outside help. (The real bosses appear to be called "the Science Council", FWIW.) The oddly interstellar vessel of the explorers bears no Starfleet markings, nor do the uniforms of the team, or their snowcat, or their indoors gear. So the incident simply does not apply.

They have such a low emphasis on combat readiness that their main exploration vessel isn't even properly armed when it goes into space, its main weapons barely function and the more advanced weapons it's supposed to be carrying have to be assembled in the field.

You understand that this is still astronomical units above the state of combat readiness demonstrated by the exploration vessels of the United States Navy today?

To the extent that combat is even one of Earth Starfleet's mission roles, it's not one they really take seriously.

Not in the case of NX-01, no. But that mission was never about combat, especially not when launched under certain false assumptions.

A Klingon. Four against one is pretty even odds when you're flying into a system that's just suffered a massive terrorist attack and therefore is on extremely high alert. Those four ships in "The Expanse" were possibly the only four ships in the entire fleet armed with anything bigger than a grenade launcher.

The three non-Enterprise ships appear better armed than NX-01, with potent red rayguns instead of impotent whitish plasma bolt blowpipes. We can make wild assumptions one way or another, but the fact remains that NX-01 was an exceptionally combat-unready vessel for the UESF of the 2150s, an organization that existed for some purpose that long preceded NX-01 and its pathfinding exploration mission.

But we DO know about it. That's what the "first contact" missions are all about, plus a fair number of Kirk and Spock's missions in TOS fall into this category. So starfleet is at least as good at this as MACO used to be.

Huh? MACO didn't used to be anything, besides a bunch of rookies aboard Archer's ship. Playing up their role in combat or playing down that of Starfleet is an exercise independent of in-universe facts and independent of the issue of what bugs Balt Edison.

When there's Beyond dialogue on the MACO being disbanded, we should not mistake it for dialogue on why MACO was disbanded. The heroes all know why (even if they aren't telling). The dialogue is specifically on why Edison's military career came to an end at the well-known juncture of the MACO disbanding - the very question "Why?" suggesting it wasn't required to come to an end at that time. The answer offered is that "Starfleet happened" and Edison became one of theirs, thus aborting his military career. Was he perhaps forced to stop being a soldier, the way John Glenn was forced to stop being an astronaut, for the greater good of Earth and the Federation?

The idea that MACO skills were transferred to UFP Starfleet is a neat one, but it strikes a bit beside the point: we don't need a reason for the MACO disbanding, as ITRW organizations with a job to do get disbanded while organizations without a job to do get perpetuated or founded seemingly at random, especially in the military context. OTOH, the true skill set of the MACO remains unknown, as does that of UESF, because of our tight focus on other things. Finally, if the art MACO were transferred, why did Edison not tag along but instead swapped careers altogether? Speculation on the answer to the latter quickly becomes independent of the putative skill set transfer issue.

We never hear of toilets either, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

And Earth's defense in fact rests on giant space octopi cloned by Nat Archer's little-seen sister Pat. Barring that, Starfleet flies combat starships in defense of Earth's interests and the MACO do not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not really much to go on here. Earth's conflict with the Xindi is pretty much shown in its entirety in Enterprise's third season, Earth's only involvement was the NX-01 and its MACO detachment sent to the Expanse. Edison almost certainly wasn't among them, so he never would have fought against the Xindi.

I don't see why Edison couldn't have been one of the MACOS on the Enterprise. We never met ALL of them, did we?

True, in STB it's said that Edison was a Major, which conflicts with ENT's implication that Hayes was the only MACO officer on the ship. But this is solved easily enough - just make sure Edison gets a battlefield commission. Seems easy enough.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't see why Edison couldn't have been one of the MACOS on the Enterprise. We never met ALL of them, did we?

They did all wear nametags, and somehow I doubt even if we got a clear look at all of them we'd find one that said "B Edison."

 

[Timo]

Which makes it automatically possible to say that any one of them was B Edison, of course.

(We might set some limits, such as him being black and male. But the face need not be an exact match, because that's not how things happen in the Trek universe. OTOH, in that universe, we actually have to ignore the nametags, because they don't stay consistent to the actors wearing them. 'S a good thing they are off focus!)

Hayes died in S3, and the MACO remained aboard for S4, so perhaps Edison was their next Major? That would actually be consistent with the way Hayes is almost totally absent from the action in S3 - Majors don't get tangled up in actual ops.

But Edison's ranting is all the more understandable if he originally failed to see any action against those aliens he so hated. He trains hard, watches all the propaganda movies from the Florida strike, gets a slot aboard a ship going to show the Xindi the hot end of MACO plasma guns. Then the Romulans intervene, and Edison gets reassigned. When they are finally out of the way and Edison returns home with the medals and thinks the slaughtering of the Xindi (and the Romulans) can finally start, the politicians decide to stop it. Blast them!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

In fact, Romaine was at the party at the end.

Was she the blonde seen here?
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...dth-down/329?cb=20161206193725&path-prefix=en

[Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on a web page or image-sharing account registered to you. - M']

 

[The Wormhole]

^^Yep.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I thought that might be the case, but wasn't sure, so I had her on "Starbase Yorktown personnel" as an unnamed friend of theirs. So we can now turn her realworld page into a in-universe page.

Where is it said that it's her, @The Wormhole? Do you see the same person in the deleted scene?

 

[The Wormhole]

I thought that might be the case, but wasn't sure, so I had her on "Starbase Yorktown personnel" as an unnamed friend of theirs. So we can now turn her realworld page into a in-universe page.

Where is it said that it's her, @The Wormhole? Do you see the same person in the deleted scene?

A deleted scene does have Scotty talking about heading out to have a drink with Mira Romaine, logical deduction would indicate the woman we see him having a drink with at the end is her.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Oh, so it's not stated, only implied? Nuts.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Granted that. But it's classic armed forces stuff for today in any case, save perhaps for the "exploring shipwrecks in Antarctica" bit.

it's also classic civilian scientific exploration stuff for today. And this before we get into the fact that Earth Starfleet is canonically a nonmilitary organization, so it doesn't really matter whether or not they are willing to throw down with Klingon assholes picking on one of their buddies.

OTOH, despite uniform similarities, no one ever identifies the ships in "The Expanse" as Starfleet vessels in the first place. It's entirely possible that those were U.N. Air Force vessels or something and the two services just happen to use similar uniforms (blue flight suit with red shoulders is 22nd century business casual).

You understand that this is still astronomical units above the state of combat readiness demonstrated by the exploration vessels of the United States Navy today?

And if Starfleet was the United States Navy, that would be relevant.

The three non-Enterprise ships appear better armed than NX-01, with potent red rayguns instead of impotent whitish plasma bolt blowpipes. We can make wild assumptions one way or another, but the fact remains that NX-01 was an exceptionally combat-unready vessel for the UESF of the 2150s...

We don't know that either. In fact it's entirely possible that none of the ships that made the intercept were even armed until right after the Xindi attack. Having their engineers slap some phase cannons onto a few geological research ships would make sense in the immediate aftermath of a devastating terrorist attack. In the time it took Enterprise to make it back to Earth, they would have had plenty of time to do that (hell, it took them even less time than that to install totally new launch tubes for the photon torpedoes).

an organization that existed for some purpose that long preceded NX-01 and its pathfinding exploration mission...

Would have no reason to exist in a combat role since there's nobody else in the solar system for them to fight (except, occasionally, the Kzinti as in my personal headcanon). But there are lots of moons, planets and comets that Earth never got to explore in detail before they had warp drive. If Starfleet is only a recently founded organization -- say, 2110s or 20s -- then those targets would have occupied most of their fleet until they decided they were finally ready to seriously explore outside Sol.

Huh? MACO didn't used to be anything, besides a bunch of rookies aboard Archer's ship.

I forgot that you're the kind of person who throws out random speculation just to be contrary and not because it has any basis in fact, so that question was based on your speculation that MACO was some sort of covert ops or SEAL type outfit (A is for "Assault").

But if you're conceding that we don't actually know anything about MACO after all, then we're back to square one: they could have a whole fleet out there parallel to Starfleet and there's no way we would actually know about it. We wouldn't have even known about MACO at all if the Xindi hadn't attacked Earth and killed millions of people.

When there's Beyond dialogue on the MACO being disbanded, we should not mistake it for dialogue on why MACO was disbanded.

It was disbanded because Starfleet is not a military organization. That's from dialog. If Earth had a military fleet during those wars -- and it very well might have -- then MACO is a possible candidate for who was actually operating that fleet.

The idea that MACO skills were transferred to UFP Starfleet is a neat one

It's not really an "idea." Edison was given command of a Starfleet vessel, so we know of one case where that actually happened. There's nothing to suggest this is a one-time deal.

It also kind of suggests that Edison had deep space experience, commanding a Warp 4 ship and all.

And Earth's defense in fact rests on giant space octopi cloned by Nat Archer's little-seen sister Pat.

That's actually likely to be true, this being Star Trek and all. The kind of weird shit Starfleet has to defend Earth from all the time is actually the reason they don't work as a military organization: because military solutions rarely (if ever) work for Earth and tend to backfire spectacularly.

 

[The Wormhole]

Oh, so it's not stated, only implied? Nuts.

Why is everyone on this forum so afraid of applying Occam's Razor?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah, look back at TOS - how much of our Trek lore is only implied and never said? Case in point: Who are the founding members of the Federation?

 

[Timo]

OTOH, despite uniform similarities, no one ever identifies the ships in "The Expanse" as Starfleet vessels in the first place.

Sorry, but that one has always been incredibly weak. We know what sort of uniform the skipper of the Intrepid wore - not "similar" but same. We know there was succession from that skipper to a UESF one in "Twilight". The rest is just pathetic wriggling.

[wriggling deleted]

It was disbanded because Starfleet is not a military organization. That's from dialog.

Let's retrace the missing step, the one where the actual dialogue is considered:

"He was a Major in MACO which took part in a lot of old world combat."
"He was a soldier..."
"Aye, sir. He was pretty good one. His military service came to an end when MACO was disbanded."
"Why? What happened?"
"The Federation, sir, Starfleet. We are not a military agency. Made him a captain and gave him the Franklin."

The disbanding happened. Nobody asks why, and nobody tells why. Instead, the question is posed why Edison's military service came to an end when the MACO was disbanded. Since the fact that the MACO was disbanded does not yet answer the question, we must accept that some other organizations allowing for the continuance of Edison's military service would have been available, resulting in the "huh?". The answer then follows: the Federation cut short Edison's military career by making him a Starfleet Captain.

There's a third interpretation readily available, too, a nuance on the above two. Because Starfleet is not a military agency, they were told to give an ex-MACO a ship to perform the military role with, in some non-Starfleet organization starved of ships and good men. The Federation dictated Edison's career move, and the Federation told Starfleet to donate a ship to the Federation Conquest and Bloodshed Force.

But that one doesn't work very well, because Edison no longer has a military career once aboard the Franklin. And not just for certain semantic values of "military" - he specifically hates being a de facto civilian, a noncombatant.

If Earth had a military fleet during those wars -- and it very well might have -- then MACO is a possible candidate for who was actually operating that fleet.

So is the American Continent Institute, or the Chinese People's Liberation Army, etc. But none of these compete evenly with UESF, which existed and fought space wars at the time, and never complained about lacking a monopoly.

Endless postulating just doesn't suffice. We never saw a MACO ship, unless it was sneakily camouflaging as something else. We never saw a MACO starship operator, unless he or she was sneakily camouflaging as something else. If there were at least something to grab onto, some hint that the MACO had their own ships... But no. When the MACO sail to save mankind in ENT S3, they get on board a Starfleet ship. Do they send a clandestine shadow mission consisting of their own, slower ships? Postulating, postulating.

It's much simpler to postulate that which is all but demonstrated already: that Starfleet does the fighting, while the MACO train in classrooms and simulators for a ground fight that never comes (not against the specified Xindi or Romulans, at any rate).

It's not really an "idea." Edison was given command of a Starfleet vessel, so we know of one case where that actually happened. There's nothing to suggest this is a one-time deal. It also kind of suggests that Edison had deep space experience, commanding a Warp 4 ship and all.

Jonathan Archer was given command of NX-01. It certainly looked like a one-time deal. Silly political stuff happens, and the results in both the above cases are tellingly disastrous.

But the point with Edison's transfer is that his skill set is wasted. He doesn't get to do what he was trained and indoctrinated to do, and is willing to go to genocidal war for the very issue. He may have been doing Starfleet as much good as the late Sen. Glenn did for NASA in politics, but a continuation of a role it ain't.

That's actually likely to be true, this being Star Trek and all. The kind of weird shit Starfleet has to defend Earth from all the time is actually the reason they don't work as a military organization: because military solutions rarely (if ever) work for Earth and tend to backfire spectacularly.

Now we're back on common ground... But the early days of Earth's interstellar fighting forces wouldn't yet involve a long tradition of abandoning the even longer tradition of bravely kicking at the enemy until one or the other wins.

(Or would they? Perhaps the Xindi struck Earth back when there were plenty of conventional armed forces but no space warfare capacity yet, not after the WWIII losses, and some weird brain trust defeated the Xindi with the help of mimes and cucumber farmers, prompting politicians to place armies in permanent disfavor?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The disbanding happened. Nobody asks why, and nobody tells why. Instead, the question is posed why Edison's military service came to an end when the MACO was disbanded. Since the fact that the MACO was disbanded does not yet answer the question, we must accept that some other organizations allowing for the continuance of Edison's military service would have been available, resulting in the "huh?". The answer then follows: the Federation cut short Edison's military career by making him a Starfleet Captain.

That was my take as well. Disbanding MACO wouldn't have normally forced Edison to take a job working for Starfleet, UNLESS his specialty was in starship operations and the disbanding of MACO left him without a lot of other options. Someone with a different specialty -- say, crowd control or demolitions -- would go to work for another military agency. Someone who flies starships for a living would end up working for Starfleet.

So is the American Continent Institute, or the Chinese People's Liberation Army, etc. But none of these compete evenly with UESF

lol how could you even BEGIN to speculate that as being the case? We only canonically know of the existence of a half dozen Earth Starfleet vessels with little reason to assume there are a whole lot more than that in existence. The Earth Cargo Service, on the other hand, is implied to have MANY vessels in service, most of which are (apparently) privately owned and already operating deeper in space than Starfleet has ever even attempted to venture. So any way you slice it, Starfleet isn't the only human body operating and/or regulating spacecraft at the time, and it may not even be the largest.

never complained about lacking a monopoly.

You wouldn't complain about lacking something you never expected to have.

We never saw a MACO ship, unless it was sneakily camouflaging as something else.

What would a MACO ship even look like? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves.

It's much simpler to postulate that which is all but demonstrated already: that Starfleet does the fighting

But see, that hasn't actually been demonstrated at all. ENTERPRISE does the fighting, and they do a horrible job of it, which kinda suggests THEY'VE been training in classrooms all this time and have no practical experience other than what they suddenly get during the Suliban Crisis. OTOH, the very first time we see the MACOs in action they demonstrate a degree of competence and coordination that Reed's Redshirts still couldn't match two seasons later.

Comparing Starfleet to the MACOs is like comparing parking enforcement to the SWAT team and then claiming that the SWAT team doesn't have their own cars because they rode in the back of a police van that one time.

Now we're back on common ground... But the early days of Earth's interstellar fighting forces wouldn't yet involve a long tradition of abandoning the even longer tradition of bravely kicking at the enemy until one or the other wins.

That's not entirely accurate, considering that this is exactly how Starfleet chose to respond to the Xindi Crisis. "Kick at em till we win" wasn't really the plan for an enemy whose very existence is already shrouded in negative space wedgies.

Perhaps the Xindi struck Earth back when there were plenty of conventional armed forces but no space warfare capacity yet, not after the WWIII losses, and some weird brain trust defeated the Xindi with the help of mimes and cucumber farmers, prompting politicians to place armies in permanent disfavor?

I assumed something similar, since the initial attack on Earth doesn't make a lot of sense in context. The first probe was meant as a first strike weapon but disastrously malfunctioned before it could hit all of its intended targets. It was probably meant to loiter around in Earth orbit for WEEKS, slicing across the entire globe to quite literally divide the planet into sectors that could be attacked and conquered. The Xindi's follow-up landing operation would have arrived just days after Enterprise left (and this was exactly the reason Starfleet didn't initially want them to leave), and made it to the surface almost entirely unopposed. MACO would have fought, so would the conventional national militaries of the world, but Xindi weapons are WEIRD and normal tactics wouldn't have been all that effective.

Enter the Starfleet analysts who figure out how those weapons work and how to nullify them using only a tricorder, a microwave oven and a bowl of non-dairy creamer. Starfleet is endlessly frustrating to try and fight because you can't actually DEFEND yourself against their bullshit.

 

[matthunter]

Why is everyone on this forum so afraid of applying Occam's Razor?

Seriously, I wouldn't trust ANY of these folk with razor blades.

 

[M'Sharak]

Seriously, I wouldn't trust ANY of these folk with razor blades.

Can we not do the thing with waking up a weeks-inactive thread solely for the purpose of insulting other posters? matt, you're supposed to know better than to pull that.

Thread closed.