Beverly Cruher: Hypocrite.

[thewanderingjack]

In The Perfect Mate Dr Crusher has serious issues with Kamala's situation, despite that, in the end, it was basically just an arranged marriage and that biologically, regardless of who she chose to be with, Kamala would transform into that person's perfect mate, losing herself in the process. Dr Crusher made the argument that the woman was raised brainwashed into thinking this was all okay.

She did not seem to have any such thoughts in The Host, regarding the host for Odan (her only problem was that the host was female, and rendered Odan "not her type").

It never was made clear whether or not Kamala was property, my impression was that she wasn't... only a "gift" in the sense that all such arrangements are a "peace offering."

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Not seeing the hypocrisy. Kamala was an empathic being who could alter her behaviour and demeanour based on the men she was in proximity too, in order to make her a more compatible mate. Due to the rarity of a female with such abilities, she was seen as a precious individual in her culture, the significance of which would be known to other species, so all those could see the importance her people placed in the peace negotiations that she was exchanged to help solidify the agreement made.

As for Crusher and Odan, it wasn't necessarily that the new host was female (though that would be a part of it, we have no proof of Crusher having dabbled with same-sex relations in her youth) but more the fact that due to whatever circumstances the person on the outside could change numerous times over the course of their relationship, which could undoubtedly put a strain on it--regardless on the sexual identity of the host.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Not seeing the hypocrisy, either. Beverly wasn't comfortable having a relationship with Odan, and called it off. The only way that's hypocritical is if it's OK to force Beverly to stay with Odan. I'm just going to go the extra step and say that it's actually not hypocritical at all.

I, too, must have somehow missed when Beverly said that she had a problem per se with Kareel being female. I recall only a problem of uncertainty about the host. It's worth pointing out that Trills had a taboo against reassociation in DS9, so it's not like Beverly's attitude turned out to be out of step with DS9's re-imagined/fleshed-out Trills, and in fact quite the contrary.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Reassociation

 

[Kor]

I'm not quite sure what the one case has to do with the other.

Kor

 

[Nakita Akita]

I don't see any relationship between an arranged marriage
And
A person that doesn't want to be with a person that might be/look completly different from one month to another.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Sorry for the confusion, it was late, side points.

The hypocrisy lies here:

In regards to Odan, Dr Crusher doesn't seem to have any problem with a sentient, intelligent being (the host) giving up their existence for the symbiote.

With Kamala, that is exactly Dr Crusher's issue with the situation. At first it seems it's about Kamala as property, but that whole part wasn't really discussed or cleared up, everyone (including Dr Crusher) moved on... but she was still hung up on how Kamala was being used. To me, that's hypocritical.

(On the side note... Crusher learns of Odan's otherness (penny in the air) and gets very confused... that's most of the episode with Odan in Riker. But watch around 41:30... when the new host comes... she's excited at first (obviously to save the patient, but also obviously because of her feelings for him), smiling as she turns, only to see the new host is a woman and her smile falls away to something mixing surprise/confusion and sadness (with an accompanying dramatic musical cue). Yeah, a small moment, but one that spoke volumes to me.)

 

[Nakita Akita]

Sorry for the confusion, it was late, side points.

The hypocrisy lies here:

In regards to Odan, Dr Crusher doesn't seem to have any problem with a sentient, intelligent being (the host) giving up their existence for the symbiote.

With Kamala, that is exactly Dr Crusher's issue with the situation. At first it seems it's about Kamala as property, but that whole part wasn't really discussed or cleared up, everyone (including Dr Crusher) moved on... but she was still hung up on how Kamala was being used. To me, that's hypocritical.

(On the side note... Crusher learns of Odan's otherness (penny in the air) and gets very confused... that's most of the episode with Odan in Riker. But watch around 41:30... when the new host comes... she's excited at first (obviously to save the patient, but also obviously because of her feelings for him), smiling as she turns, only to see the new host is a woman and her smile falls away to something mixing surprise/confusion and sadness (with an accompanying dramatic musical cue). Yeah, a small moment, but one that spoke volumes to me.)

Maybe she would have reacted the same if the new host had been a short, fat man with bright red, curly hair, but bald on top, with one eye noticeably higher than the other and a very crooked nose, slightly smashed looking, with one brown eye and one blue eye.

Also, I know I would have been okay with sex with Odan and Riker( not at the same time though) but not with Tall and Blond Woman.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Maybe she would have reacted the same if the new host had been a short, fat man with bright red, curly hair, but bald on top, with one eye noticeably higher than the other and a very crooked nose, slightly smashed looking, with one brown eye and one blue eye.

Also, I know I would have been okay with sex with Odan and Riker( not at the same time though) but not with Tall and Blond Woman.

But if we assume that her problem was with the host's looks/appearance as opposed to her gender, doesn't that make her superficial? So now I think she's a hypocritical and superficial... haha I might wind up hating her :-P.

P.s.: she dug at least one bald man.... who knows ;-)

 

[thewanderingjack]

Tall and Blond Woman

Tsk, sexist... she looked perfectly sexable to me... not into Riker though (not into men, but hypothetically)... we'd fight for control too much, and he often comes off sleazy for a charmer... if fact maybe the charm makes the sleaze more stark.

 

[Tenacity]

I, too, must have somehow missed when Beverly said that she had a problem per se with Kareel being female

It was Beverly's facial expression when she first saw the new host was female. Up to that point she was obviously excited to meet the new host, exspecting (IMO) that they would be male.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It was Beverly's facial expression when she first saw the new host was female. Up to that point she was obviously excited to meet the new host, exspecting (IMO) that they would be male.

Yeah, I can't deny that's how the scene plays. It's just that she denies that's the reason.

 

[Orac]

If memory serves The Perfect Mate came a year after The Host, seems to me her attitude in the latter episode was probably informed by her experience in the first one. Just as her attitude in the first episode was probbly informed by a bad experience earlier in her life. Humans are good at justifying prejudices. Sorry if this reads as nonsensical I'm suffering from a concussion and shouldn't even be reading let alone writing, off to rest my brain again now.

 

[thewanderingjack]

It's worth pointing out that Trills had a taboo against reassociation in DS9, so it's not like Beverly's attitude turned out to be out of step with DS9's re-imagined/fleshed-out Trills, and in fact quite the contrary.

Actually, since Odan seems perfectly willing, bette yet, is eager to continue their relationship, it is inconsistent. But of course, he was so in love with her, it didn't matter to him, and he never mentioned it because he didn't want it to be another weight on her.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Actually, since Odan seems perfectly willing, bette yet, is eager to continue their relationship, it is inconsistent. But of course, he was so in love with her, it didn't matter to him, and he never mentioned it because he didn't want it to be another weight on her.

"The Host" was a one-off TNG episode with the Trills revised/retconned/fleshed out for DS9, however you want to put it. My point was that, whatever her motivation, Beverly's attitude is perfectly in line with what the Trills came to be in DS9.

 

[thewanderingjack]

My point was that, whatever her motivation, Beverly's attitude is perfectly in line with what the Trills came to be in DS9.

But it isn't... I mean I think I get what what you're saying, but since she the non-trill in the equation I don't see her attitude as having to be in line with anything (in terms of Trill ideaology), it's more or less the human-version/reason why Trills avoid reassociation. or the Trill side o things we have to turn to Odan, and unless we accept my theory, then he is not acting very Trill.

The bumps for spots... on that, let's go with... neither host they showed was actually a Trill... no one ever said they were(?). I don't recall details being given, except that Trills are 2 seperate symbiotic species, they merge and the non-humanoid symbiont appears to become the dominant personality (despite the whole "synthesis" ideology and proof thereof).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But it isn't... I mean I think I get what what you're saying, but since she the non-trill in the equation I don't see her attitude as having to be in line with anything (in terms of Trill ideaology), it's more or less the human-version/reason why Trills avoid reassociation. or the Trill side o things we have to turn to Odan, and unless we accept my theory, then he is not acting very Trill.

Of course it doesn't have to be in line. I didn't say it did. I never said she did it in order to be in line with any kind of Trill ideology. I just said it was in line with it, as conceived in DS9, whatever her motivation was, so in other words, coincidentally. Point being, what she did was something Trills, collectively, would be perfectly comfortable with, even with feelings of love.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Of course it doesn't have to be in line. I didn't say it did. I never said she did it in order to be in line with any kind of Trill ideology. I just said it was in line with it, as conceived in DS9, whatever her motivation was, so in other words, coincidentally. Point being, what she did was something Trills, collectively, would be perfectly comfortable with, even with feelings of love.

But which Odan, the Trill example, was not comfortable with... well he did seem "ok" in the end, but he was really trying to keep the flame alive for a while.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But which Odan, the Trill example, was not comfortable with... well he did seem "ok" in the end, but he was really trying to keep the flame alive for a while.

Well, yeah. Trills don't seem to have been originally conceived of as having a taboo against re-association.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Well, yeah. Trills don't seem to have been originally conceived of as having a taboo against re-association.

No, but I think the "he was sooo in love" explanation smooths that over well, it does happen after all. The, "those hosts weren't Trill" is the harder bit, but I could talk you into it if you give me a chance :-D

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

As mentioned by other TNG Trills seemed to be that the Hosts were nothing more than a body for the Symbiont to use, thankfully DS9 made it a shared existence with both gaining for the arrangement.

Though sticking with the TNG Trill concept, that was their peoples way of existence for eons, one that didn't bother them and they were all perfectly happy and eager for. Beverly, as a trained Starfleet officer, would know not to judge other cultures and people based on her own preconceived notions of 'normal' and her beliefs. That'd be like us judging her for her pronunciation of croissant!