Better late than never...

[Sadistro]

Hello there.

So after the longest time of telling myself I wouldn't, I finally gave in and started watching Voyager. Until recently I was a staunch 'DS9 and TOS are the only Trek worth watching' nut.

I'd seen a couple of episodes of Voyager here and there over the years of course, but it never grabbed me enough to bother with. However, after recently giving TNG another go (and enjoying it very much actually), I took the plunge.

And here's what I thought...

First Impressions/Season One thoughts.
After watching through Season One, my feelings towards the show were quietly optimistic. I felt that S1 was a fairly solid slice of Sci-Fi adventure fare, one that included very few outright clunkers, but that had also squandered some very interesting ideas and produced equally few outright classics.

I love the basic premise behind Voyager. I think it was a great idea to have one ship on its own in a new quandrant. To quickly recap what I said on TNG forums, I love the interstellar politics and warmongering that DS9 has, but feel that these same elements made TNG too 'workaday'. I.e, I didn't like how 'tamed' the Universe became from TNG S3 onwards.

I also loved the idea of having the ship split between Federation and Maquis crew members. The tensions and the need to work together would surely provide great drama.

However...
Whilst I feel there is much to merit in S1, I feel both the above elements were seriously bungled. The lone ship, vulnerable and scrapping for survival element never materialised. Everything seemed to settle down into 'business as usual' pretty much straight away. They have limited resources, manpower and equipment, yet they go right back to happy space exploration...

Add to this that the Delta Quadrant is not exactly the return to early TNG 'Angels and Demons' style space. I.e the Quadrant is not full of untamed, awesome sights and wonders, but rather is disappointingly civilsed for the most part.

Yes, the two main races that show up are hostile (the Vidiians and the Kazon). But neither show up enough or do anything memorable enough to give a real element of danger to the journey. It is extremely frustrating that the Kazon only start to make a decent impact in S2 (by which time it was far too late as surely they would have left them behind by then?)

I think both races are fairly decent and as I said, I think their contributions to S2 are much better. There is simply more danger and tension shooting throughout S2. It's just a shame it took them so long to get going.

The same can be said for the Federation/Maquis angle. I like the idea of the Maquis, but in TNG, DS9 and Voyager, they never seem to get enougb episodes or enough focus. The tensions between the two crews are resolved almost immediately and are rarely mentioned again throughout S1. Everyone just joins Starfleet and goes on their merry way.

There are occasional murmurs of dissent from the Maquis crew members, but not nearly enough. I was very disappointed with how this all played out. They were a few decent nods to it in S2, but again that is far, far too late (as by that time you would expect the need to band together would have kicked in). The early going in S1 was the time for such tensions and they fail to make any kind of impact.

But what about Good News? What did I like?

Well, for a start I think the main cast of actors are a very likeable and engaging bunch (except I'm sorry to say for Kate Mulgrew, which I'll mention in a minute). Although I don't find many of the actual characters all that amazing, they are all workable.

But it's the cast that really sell it. DS9 had great characters with sometimes ropey acting, Voyager has fairly average characters played very well. They seem a far more professional outfit than the TNG crew (who were good, but seemed a bit jokey and laidback for the Flagship in my opinion). Voyager's crew has more edge and they seem more on the ball.

The only fly in the ointment as I said, is very sadly the main character - Janeway. A bland character to begin with, I just cannot get with Kate Mulgrew's acting at all. From her bizarre way of marching and standing like some kind of action doll, through to her whispering, syrupy voice...

I have nothing against a female captain (I love Michelle Forbes' Admiral Kane in Battlestar Galactica for example), but Janeway is such a ruthlessly irritating character. By and large however, I can put up with her - it's just sad that such an important character leaves me so cold.

My last point is that again, I think the ratio of good episodes to outright howlers in this Season is pretty good. There were very, very few that I couldn't stand and surely that's a good thing. The thing I would say however is that even if a season has depressing lows, a first season must have some great highs. A first that was 'alright I suppose' as this was, is not really ideal.

I just wish it had a bit more edge and more tension (which S2 delivered in my opinion).

So anyway, here's my list of favourite episodes. I split them into A list and B list, to show the ones I really thought were great and the ones that were good but not quite great.

Season One - The A List.
'Caretaker, pt 1'.
'Phage'.
'Cathexis'.

The B list.
'Eye of the Needle.'
'State of Flux.'
'Jetrel'.

And that's all for now.

 

[Jeri]

I like pretty much everything about VOY; I like the action, the stories, the guest cast. But I'd agree with you about the great regular cast. That's why I enjoy rewatching the shows so much. And I think Janeway's great; she's a lot like Kirk, and I'm an old timer who watched Kirk since 1966. He had a lot of the qualities Janeway has.

 

[Lynx]

I can actually agree on most of what Sadistro has written in his/her post except for the criticizm of Janeway/Mulgrew. Personally I find Janeway one of thebest characters in Star Trek and Mulgrew is an excellent actress.

Despite that I really love the episodes with the Kazon involved, especially those with Seska and Culluh involved, I must question the amount of time (almost two years) it took to get through Kazon space. Even if it could be possible that the Kazon sects had inhabited a large area of the quadrant, it seems a bit unlikely that they should deal with the Nistrim so far away from what could be regarded as Nistrim space as they do in "Basics".

Note also that Voyager seem to be flying through some "corridor" between Kazon and Vidiian space in seasons 1 and 2, a corridor in which there are some independent worlds and small empires as well.

What they could have done is to have Voyager stuck at some place in Kazon/Vidiian space for some time in the first or second season, maybe they could have been protecting The 37:s planet or Ocampa for a while. It would have been a more realistic scenario in which we could have had the adventures with the Kazon and the Vidiiians as we did have in those seasons.

However, despite some flaws I'm very happy with the three first seasons of the show.

As for the characters, I think that Voyager had the best characters of all the Trek series. No offense to the TNG, DS9 or TOS characters, they are also great but I just happen to like the Voyager characters most of all.

 

[McCoy]

TNG was serviceable but bland; best thing about it was Q.

ENT was very disappointing. I hated what they did to the Vulcans, my favourite alien race.

VOY is my third-favourite Trek (after TOS and DS9) and it's mainly because of the characters. As the OP said, they sold it.

And my favourite VOY character is Janeway.

 

[Sadistro]

I agree that they took far too long to get out of Kazon/Viidian space, but I was willing to let it slide because they made such good use of them in S2, building on the promising ideas from S1.

Before I get into the characters etc, I'll just mention that I am currently up to 'Dark Frontier' in S5, so I have a fair amount of episodes under my belt now.

To summarise my feelings on the show up to this point, here is what I felt generally about the seasons so far:

S1: Decent but unremarkable, as I said.

S2: Generally very good in my opinion. Loved the whole 'Ship of Death' angle where Voyager is gathering a reputation as a bad omen (I wish they'd kept this). Kazon are used very well this season, but the female caretaker episode was a bit odd.

S3: Very disappointing indeed. Michael Piller is sorely missed as after a tight, focused S2, this season just seems listing and tilting about, shuffling its heels. I found it a drab season. The return of the Borg was alrightish, but they still don't seem nearly as terrifying as they should.

S4: I thought this was a very good season indeed; probably my favourite so far along with S2. I liked the two major races of the season (Hirogen and Krenim) and the dark, menacing tone is very satisfying. One problem I had was that 'The Killing Game' didn't quite live up to its great premise. I throughly enjoyed 'Year of Hell' however.

S5: I haven't finished this season yet, but so far I'm not impressed. The amount of episodes devoted to Seven of Nine is becoming ridiculous (practically every other episode focuses on her, it seems), and the new race, the Malons are very boring.

So that's how I stand on the seasons so far. I'd like to just take some time to talk about characters. I must reiterate that I find the characters rather 'blank' for the most part in Voyager. The cast do a marvellous job of making you care about them anyway though, so I don't really mind that much.

But it's a shame, because so many of the cast rarely get much of a chance to shine and the connections between the characters aren't built on nearly enough for my liking. But the writers don't seem to agree with each other on the characters or their interactions.

Jeri Taylor for example, obviously liked the idea of having Janeway act as a 'proud mother' to Tom Paris' character, right from the word go. She also likes the idea of Janeway and Tuvok being old comrades and close confidantes. As she scales back the number of episodes she writes however, these connections become more and more rare, as few of the other writers are interested in pursuing such angles.

Indeed very few of the writers seem at all interested in writing for Tom Paris and B'Elanna Torres. By S5, Paris still doesn't have many episodes to call his own. This isn't helped by the fact that Brannon Braga seems to really hate the character and inflicts grievous punishment of him whenever possible.

Braga just doesn't like characters like Paris (i.e maverick, 'cool', womaniser types), something he displayed amply in TNG when he would regularly inflict punishment on Riker and have him ridiculed. Braga clearly doesn't approve of this kind of character or this kind of behaviour (a good example is the resort location in S3 - Braga only uses it once and that is to have a swarm of insectoid aliens attack and mutilate the 'hunks and babes' therein!)

So poor old Paris gets the treatment good and proper from Braga and it's really not fair at all. He's always made the butt of jokes (particularly from the Doctor who Braga does like), always loses in fights, never gets the chance to be truly heroic etc (just look at the amount of times he gets bailed out by Chakotay - another of Braga's favourites).

When absolutely forced to use him in an episode, Braga will adopt one of two strategies. He either tries to change the character to something he likes more (Paris starts out as an edgy, dangerous, maverick kind of character, but is turned into a goofy, geeky kind of character eventually).

But more often, Braga simply pretends to allow him the chance to do something heroic, then has him fail. He has a high speed car chase in 'Future's End' but he's chasing the wrong thing and he fails to stop it - before being saved by Chakotay. In 'The Killing Game', he comes in to rescue his gal from the Nazi scum - only to get beaten up by said Nazi.

Now I'm sorry, but that's just not on. The heroes are supposed to come through and right the wrongs. Paris is about to be killed the Nazi commander before a passing Klingon saves him! So he doesn't to avenge B'Elenna's honour - something he also has to put up with in Vis A Vis incidentally, when his body is stolen and the imposter sleeps with Torres.

Just to add insult to injury, he doesn't even get to shine in 'Bride of Chaotica!' - an episode designed around Captain Proton, who he plays! Dr Chaotica ends being defeated by Janeway, whilst Proton is off elsewhere! And anyway, you don't need to take my word for it - just watch Season 1-5 and find all the episode in which Paris is the main character (there are about 3 altogther!) And then count the number of times he is beaten, ridculed and otherwise fails miserably.

In the idea that 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' however, at least he gets to be in some episodes. Something that can rarely be said for B'Elanna Torres. Unless she is actually the main character, the chances are that she won't even really be in an episode! Considering she is reasonable enough idea for a character, she gets very, very little to do.

It's a real shame Ronald D Moore didn't stay on the show (I seem to recall he joined, but left almost immediately after a fight with Braga), because he loved Klingons and would have done something with the character.

Janeway... well I already made my feelings very plain on her. She is an insufferable know all and seems to make decisions that are designed to irritate me. I can't stand her superior attitude, the way she tramples over aliens beliefs when she doesn't like them, just the whole business. The way she frequently endangers the ship needlessly and leads away missions into combat is also extremely annoying.

My main bone of contention at the moment however, is the outrageous overuse of Seven of Nine. I'm not sure how much more of her I can take! She seems to be the focal point in nearly every episode at the moment and it's wearing very, very thin. I winced when she joined the cast, partly because of that ridiculous catsuit, but more because it opened the door for a whole world of 'what does it mean to be human', PTSD from being a borg killer stream of episodes and boy, was I right!

They just keep coming one after the other. And they're always so predictable too. I have no real problem with the character when I really boil it down (although the catsuit is extremely silly), but I just wish she wouldn't get used so much. I want to know about the other characters! Poor old Harry Kim rarely gets a look in these days (and that's criminal because Garret Wang is very engaging actor).

Anyway, I've ranted myself to exhaustion for the time being, so I've leave it there for now.

 

[Seven of Five]

I went through a big Voyager rewatch months and months ago. I think my opinion of the series improved greatly, but I was still left underwhelmed. I think Voyager has to be taken at face value - if you go into the series open-minded, knowing that in many cases it didn't fulfil its potential, you'll be left surprised at how likeable you find the cast, and how good some of the episodes are despite so many restrictions on creativity from higher-ups.

I agree with you somewhat in the lack of decent characterisation of Paris and Tuvok - both characters suffered after Taylor left, but so did Harry and Chakotay too. After Seven was introduced, they were gradually shifted to the background where they were pretty much ignored for large periods of time. So was Tuvok - at least Tom had his 20th Century 'obsession' and B'Elanna to keep him interesting.

I think when Seven came on board the writers started telling better stories with her. It's a shame that just every now and then when they came up with yet another Seven show, they couldn't stop and think and say "Can we use Chakotay/Tuvok here instead?"

Season 5 where you are now was probably the most consistent season they had. Of course B'Elanna (one of my faves), who had a few good *individual* episodes that year, was totally schizophrenic. Out of nowhere she had been depressed for months and missed the Maquis, but of course episodes before and after this never reference it. B'Elanna improves greatly by the end of the series, hang in there with her!

 

[Sadistro]

Hello there!

To be fair to the writers of the show, it isn't always really their fault that some of the characters get lost in the shuffle. Writers have to write about things that interest them and tackle subjects they feel comfortable with. Certain characters simply lend themselves better to certain kinds of stories.

As an example, let's look at the problems facing Brannon Braga. Looking over his work on the series, it's clear he likes 3 characters more than the others - Harry Kim, Chakotay and the Doctor. Not surprising as they are all examples of decent, good hearted men. They have values that Braga respects. The Doctor and Kim are outsiders and underdogs, Chakotay is sober, serious and moral etc.

However, when it comes to writing his episodes, it becomes apparent that it will be hard for him to include Kim and Chakotay as much as he would like. Because he is working on the big episodes and to make them as good as he can, he turns to the subjects he feels most comfortable with - time travel, alternate realities, nightmare/dream worlds etc etc.

In earlier times, he would simply build an intense episode around these themes and either use his favourite characters to explore them (Worf, Data in TNG for example) or use them to punish characters he didn't like (Riker, Paris etc).

But now he has to write bigger, more epic episodes. This immediately takes him out of his comfort zone and he takes to writing with Joe Menosky and together they try and move out into more action filled stories (as neither were very big on that before - such episodes were usually handled by Piller, Ron Moore etc).

So they're under way. But what characters to use? Firstly, such episodes must pretty much always feature Janeway as a principal character. She's the captain, the main hero and big episodes must have her featured prominently. Next, the Doctor and Seven of Nine are obvious choices because their technlogical abilties and makeup (Borg tech and Hologram respectively) allow for all kinds of useful applications to time travel and related theme stories.

The Doctor can also appear in pretty much any enviroment and setting they choose, be it the past of far future, so the possibilities are much broader with him. And it doesn't hurt at all that most of the writers love him anyway.

So when writing an episode, Braga already has 3 characters who are pretty much going to have to be important before he's even picked up his pen! And give him credit - he does try and use Kim and Chakotay as much as he can given this impediment. They often have significant smaller roles in the episodes, as he tries to work in time to do stuff with them.

The 100th episode is the proof of the matter. Knowing that this was the one episode he really wanted to get right, Braga wisely decided not to mess about and just used the subject matter he liked talking about and told the story with his favourite characters.

So it isn't that he doesn't want to use some of these characters, just that his style of episode demands the use of other characters. It might not be so bad, but for the fact that none of the other writers really engage with Kim or Chakotay. Kenneth Biller does, but he writes less and less episodes as time goes on, unfortunately.

The other problem is that the Doctor and Seven's usefulness and broad range of options for writers is not confined to the big episodes. They simply offer the best starting point for most of the writers. Most of the writers in VOY had the misfortune to be really talented but all at the same things. Jeri Taylor, Brannon Braga, Micheal Taylor and Joe Menosky all write excellently dark, intense tales, but are all writing in the same general field. (The two Taylors bring a little warmth and heart, but it's only reletively speaking - both are still extremely dark writers).

There is no Michael Piller to ground the show and give it stability. Under his guidance, shows feels more 'real', the enviroment is more defined etc. With someone like Ron Moore also, a sense of true, exhurberant adventure comes along and a sense of humour.

Humour does exist in Voyager but too often it is either mean spirited swipes at Paris from Braga or everybody falling over themselves to use The Doctor.

Anyway, I seem to be out of time again. Basically what I wanted to say was that Voyager needed a more diverse range of writers. The writing staff from S5 onwards is almost exclusively male, and contains too many lovers of time travel and related themes.

It also feels awkward at times because Braga clearly wanted the characters to be tested and tormented more to draw us closer to them. Hence S5 whips up many 'one episode crises' which are quickly resolved to extremely unlikely effect.

But that's for another time...

 

[Lucy of Nine]

This is all so interesting to read! Keep it up guys!

I would love to see the character/episode breakdown to see who got the most and who got the least. I feel like poor Harry and Chakotay would be the ones with the least 'main story' episodes... As much as I love Seven, it did become very 'seven' heavy near the end. Which wouldnt have been so bad if they'd focused on the journeys of some of the others....

 

[kimc]

As much as I love Seven, it did become very 'seven' heavy near the end. Which wouldnt have been so bad if they'd focused on the journeys of some of the others....

I agree. Seven started out as a very interesting character but unfortunately Braga fell in love with the creation and she became a Mary Sue. I personally think the character and the actress playing her deserved better.

 

[Sadistro]

Hello there all. Sorry it's been a while but my internet account died and... oh, you know how it goes!

With regard to the amount of episodes per character, Chakotay and Harry are actually pretty well served to my recollection, albeit only because they receive lots of episodes early on. As I've already touched on, Braga really liked these two characters and early on, he writes pretty much exclusively for Kim, Chakotay and the Doctor.

It is the fact that he needs to move into writing the 'big' episodes as I touched on, that forces him to move away from this slightly. I would still argue that Kim and Chakotay get significant mentions in Braga's episodes that show that he would really prefer to write for them.

I would also contest the idea that Braga wrote heavily for Seven of Nine. As I understand it, they dated for a time (not sure about that). But even so, Braga rarely focuses exclusively on her. Joe Menosky is much more Seven influenced (he is the main writer who engages with the mother/daughter relationship of Seven and Janeway).

Braga meanwhile still seems to gravitate to his favourite three. Seven has to be included (as she was bringing in the ratings and as people have said, she isn't actually a bad character really). But I disagree very strongly indeed that Braga got caught up on the character. He writes basically none of the standalone Seven episodes.

Whilst I'm here, I thought I'd say a few words about Season 5, seeing as how it seems to be very highly regarded. I have mixed feelings about this season. In terms of its ambition, focus and overall 'feel', I think this had enormous potential. Braga's first year as showrunner brings a creative control that had been lacking since Michael Piller left.

It's such a great idea for a season. Emphasise the idea of a ship in lonely, often haunted waters, beset by pirates, 'sea' monsters and show the psychological effects of such a journey on the crew. In principle, this is exactly what I had hoped Voyager would be like. It also sees the hiring of Michael Taylor - a very interesting writer who wrote some truly chilling, (but excellent) episodes of DS9.

Unfortunately, I think it still doesn't add up to all that many great episodes. Many of the crises facing the characters come completely out of the blue and are resolved too quickly. The idea of Torres becoming suicidal and detached is okay, but this angle had already been addressed last season and is part a larger problem - namely that whenever she is in trouble, Paris is never allowed to help her out or be of any use. It hurts the credibility of their love story.

Amount of episodes per character is again a problem. Seven of Nine gets (and I swear there is no pun intended here) roughly 7-9 episodes where she is the main focus and is basically always important throughout. The Doctor gets lots of chances to shine as usual and Janeway obviously is very prominent. Everyone else however, only get 1 or 2 episodes over the whole season. Tuvok particularly is very badly used this season.

I also don't like the Malons at all. I can see what Braga was trying to do however. He has a rather dark, fatalistic view of life it seems. He frequently focuses on horror and intense trauma, both physical and mental. Far from the romantic visions of the future that others have, Braga attitude is that being far from home would be wearing on the soul and the sanity.

He also contends that whilst it would nice to imagine a future filled with helpful and friendly races, it's more realistic to show people and races acting for their own profit and preying on others. Space is filled with majestic sights, but also terrible things and more often than not, you will be disapointed by the reality beneath the dream.

This is a main focus of the season. Seemingly wonderful sights and races are revealed to be something disapointingly evil or self serving. The Cardassian doctor for example is helpful, charming and intelligent - but also a mass murderer and torturer. A perfect series of days where Seven and the Doctor grow closer is torn down when she casually comments that she doesn't feel that way about him.

There is just a sense of tremendous disapointment and disenchament throughout the season. Time and again, the crew find that what they hoped life would be like, how they wanted it to be can not come true. The old man hunting the Moby Dickesque monster in 'Bliss' sails into its maw, because he would rather face possible death trying to defeat it, than live in a world that won't give him what he wants (he has become immune to its lures by slowly abandoning all wants).

And it ends very nicely in 'Equinox' because they represent the culmination of this disappointment. Through all the heartache and pain, they still had the Federatiion to cling to, that pride at being Starfleet officers. Now they see a Federation crew actually so despicably - it is little wonder that Janeway becomes so enraged. It's the final straw.

So in principle, a truly great idea for a season. But I just didn't like that many of the episodes, infuriatingly. Having Jeri Taylor only write one episode doesn't help, neither does the fact that Michael Taylor is still finding his feet on the show.

Anyway, that's all for now (if anyone's still out there!)

 

[jgdst]

They seem like pretty fair appraisals of the show. I think season 5 was where I started to get a bit disillusioned with the show, not least because of the sheer number of Seven of Nine episodes, and the continued taming of the Borg.

On the other hand, there are a lot of standout episodes that season that I really enjoy, but in true Voyager fashion, the themes are never revesited or you get a bit of retcon mixed with a dash of reset button. I'll try and explain what I mean

Night is an excellent epsiode, and a very strong start to the season. However the potential for a gripping arc was lost here by managing to find a conveniently local shortcut out of the void, not really capitalising on the Malon and their selfish and destructive ways, or by following up on Janeway's increasing isolation and feelings of guilt.

In fact, Janeway resets to season two mode with a kind of Maneuvers style "HA! I WAS RIGHT, I'M ALWAYS RIGHT! And Chakotay, you're not to speak again" take on things. This is probably best shown with her changing in ethics between Equinox part 1 and part 2. Although, I'll argue that Equinox is the strongest two parter of Voyager's run. (It would've been Year of Hell... but the damn reset button made another unwelcome appearance).

There's some pretty awful filler in that season to though - 11:59 springs to mind. And I'm not at all a fan of Dark Frontier, which not only seems to rewrite humanity's interaction with the Borg (not to mention the design of the Raven being a little too advanced for its supposed launch date), but we have Janeway actively starting fights with the Borg. And winning. With no lasting repercussions to the ship or the crew...

Course:Oblivion more than makes up for this though, as it's right up there with Tuvix and The Thaw for episodes that leave you feeling pretty crappy or just pensive - I've found emotional attachment is something Voyager doesn't always manage to achieve.

As for Braga becoming executive producer - he definitely renews that sense of not everything goes right, but I've never been a fan of the episodes he writes or does the teleplay for... Non Sequitur, Threshold, Remember and Rise spring instantly to mind from the early seasons. So my feelings are mixed on him.

Either way, season 5 was the last season I properly enjoyed before I started feeling something was wrong (season 6 gave me a feeling of "are they trying to get home, or what?" and a lot of season 7 just left me cold for some reason - definitely too much time spent on holographic rights I think along with more filler and out of the blue character developments)...

Sorry about the long post folks I'm rewatching the series again and forming new opinions so it's nice to compare it to someone else's experience!

 

[roguephoenix]

Hello there.

So after the longest time of telling myself I wouldn't, I finally gave in and started watching Voyager. Until recently I was a staunch 'DS9 and TOS are the only Trek worth watching' nut.

lol i'm your exact opposite. to me tng and voyager are the only trek worth watching.

 

[Sadistro]

Ahoy there, mateys!

I must confess that I also disliked 'Dark Frontier'. The idea of making the Borg into pirates of a kind was interesting I suppose. After all, that's really what they are - albeit incredibly advanced and powerful ones. And bringing in the Borg Queen as a kind of 'Pirate Queen' does have its charms.

It's also interesting to see how Janeway's mindset is changing at this point. She thinks nothing of stealing and commiting piracy on the Borg, which shows she is slipping towards a 'get home at any cost' mindset. And this sets up the finale very well as she sees in Ransom what she is in danger of becoming.

And yet, the episode continues to downgrade the threat level of the Borg. It really got on my nerves when they suggested that Seven's family had been some kind of 'citizen spies', because it makes them seem ludicrously foolish, especially for taking her along with them. But also it's annoying that the Borg are fooled by it for so long.

I loved the Borg when they first appeared but over time, they get less and less scary. It's irritating that despite all the assimilating they do, they never seem to get any better. Would creating fast drones, combat drones, fitting them out with guns, combat enchancements etc not be a smart move? It wouldn't take much effort and would help them enormously.

Especially when they have an intelligence like the Borg Queen, it's foolish to suggest that they wouldn't take basic safety steps (intercept anyone who trespasses on their ships, scan bio material for the viruses that people love to pass onto them etc).

Instead they get stuck in the slightly comedic 'undead pirates' routine.

As for 'Night'... well, I loved the first twenty minutes or so, but after that I lost interest. The Malons simply do not appeal to me at all and the story with the aliens in the expanse didn't grab. And though I don't care much for Paris, I do think Braga goes overboard on hurting him and ridiculing him all the time.

11:59 is okay for just lounging about and passing the time. The actors work well together and Joe Menosky is a master at taking rather dry subjects and making them interesting. But yes, it's not ideal and is clearly filler. It does help to show how disenchanted Janeway is becoming. Her ancestor did a very warm and human thing, yet she feels misery and disappointment that she wasn't something 'important' like she thought she was.

With regard to Braga's earlier episodes, I would argue that some of those episodes are better than you may remember. 'Non Seqitur' may be standard time travel/alternate realities fare, but is a prime example of how well Braga writes for Harry Kim just on a character and dialogue level. It's clear he really loves the character.

The same goes for 'Rise'. It may not be the most overwhelmingly amazing thing that you've ever seen, but the interaction between Neelix and Tuvok is excellent. Ethan Phillips is a great actor and though Neelix gets a lot of stick, whenever they give him a serious episode, he nails it every time.

Just watch his performances in 'Jetrel', 'Rise', 'Fair Trade', 'Mortal Coil', 'Once upon a Time', 'Memorial' etc.

Regardless of what you think of the actual episodes, just concentrate on him and the power of his performances. It's really excellent stuff.

And Braga can get a bit hysterical when it comes to lecturing us on how wicked people and life in general are and is. 'Remember' and 'Memorial' have powerful moments, but it often feels like visual terrorism, that Braga is getting satisfaction in shoving human cruelty and our tendency to look away and pretend we don't see it.

It's all a bit preachy and especially with regard to 'Memorial' - he writes the story, not the teleplay, but it's his idea. Leaving the beacon intact where it can traumatise innocent passersby (to a extremely dangerous level remember), is not a responsible thing to do.

It's awkward territory in the extreme, because the implication he is making is that by turning away from these aspects of life that we know are going on or have gone on, we are complicit and guilty for not caring (how much suffering, starvation and genocide etc is taking place right now as we talk of this TV show for example?)

Now... yes, the tragedies of life must never be forgotten, but people have a right to live without being forced to dwell on such horrific imagery. More importantly, they have a right to not be made to feel like uncaring villains just because they don't want to face this.

It's clear that Braga feels an intense disappointment in life and in how life is in general; that these things happen and that people are so despicable to each other. And I'm playing Devil's Advocate to a degree here, because I sympathise with that pessimistic view of life to quite an extent.

But I think that when he became showrunner, he needed to balance out that view with the wider needs of the show. Star Trek is a show that prides itself on providing optimism and encouragement for its viewers after all.

But that's just not Braga really. It becomes obvious in S6, which is clearly intended to be a much lighter and more upbeat season in reaction to the doom and gloom of S5. He is seriously out of his comfort zone is such territory and the season suffers badly as a result, because the main mind behind the show doesn't agree on a fundamental level with the tone of the season.

Anyway, I wish I had more time, but alas the hour is upon me once again.

Good day to you all (and how dare you diss TOS, Roguephoenix !)

 

[jgdst]

^ Lol, Pirate Queen Sums it up perfectly I think.

I definitely agree with you that it's the performances and dialogue that are the strong points of Braga's episodes - proof that Ethan Phillips should really have had more of a chance to shine. Jetrel and Mortal Coil are superb examples of this. It's actually Janeway's reaction that confused me in that episode, she seems to lack some of the compassion she has most of the time: "Oh suck it up Neelix and make nice with Mr Genocide"

I think the thing that bothered me most about Rise was Tuvok's treatment of Neelix. It seemed a little out of character and went quite a bit further to the usual impatience we see Tuvok show, and more towards the infamous holodeck scene in Meld. It's probably because I think Tuvok's a great character (and I'll push so far as to say best Vulcan portrayal so far - I'm prepared for some backlash now) and don't like to see him being in situations where his crown slips. His interactions with Kim in Alter Ego are another example where I'm not too sure how Tuvok was written as slightly inconsiderate.

Regarding Once Upon A Time - when the forest gets flamed, I think that's one of the most disturbing things I've seen since Return To Oz. Decent episode otherwise.

I think I'm with you, preferring Braga's darker, more pessimistic view, and it could very well be the same reason season 6 never felt comfortable with me. I do think the show suffered in his absence during season 7.

I never noticed the abuse of Paris, but now I think of it, he did seem to have a lot of bad luck At least there's a gem like Thirty Days in there every so often, which does wonders for the character, and shows him maturing from the more care-free, almost obnoxious Paris that came out of prison.

 

[Sadistro]

Hey there.

Whilst I share your appreciation of Braga's detail with regard to characters and their emotional responses to situations, I think it's a bit hard to dismiss his ideas for episodes, which have often been very interesting.

However, it cannot be denied that often the execution of those ideas falls a little short. Braga is someone whose style is unfortunately tailored made to upset many fans in many respects. His episodes in TNG and Voyager are best described as trying to make sense of a bizarre and hostile world. Parralel dimensions, time travel, possible insanity for characters and just a real sense of utter chaos, that you really don't know what to expect next.

Which is all great, but the problem is that such episodes require an awful lot of work to explain the bizarre situations and creepy goings on (Braga is by far the writer who uses the most frightening, visceral imagery in his work). His episodes in both TNG and Voyager are feature extreme warping of reality and it is the unsatisfactory explanations and last minute remedies that appear to annoy people.

The more you use technology, time travel etc, the more the chance for you to make a mistake increase, due to the complexities of the subject matter. Both Braga and Joe Menosky are fond of this kind of story and it requires them to devote chunks of the show to explaining what is going on and why certain obvious solutions can't be used etc etc.

And when he puts a foot wrong and messes it up (which is inevitable really given the material and deadlines etc), it really gets people's backs up. Also the 'quick fix' solution is necessary because Braga doesn't want to lose any more time from his episodes. He wants to concentrate on the mental anguish and chaotic terror his situations have allowed for.

I like Tuvok very much also and was deeply saddened at the greatly reduced role he was relegated to in later seasons. 'Rise' is a rare episode in which Braga writes for Tuvok and you have correctly identified that he is a bit wide of the mark with the character.

Vulcans represent a bit of problem for writers like Braga. He likes to show great emotion in the characters (usually bewilderment and fear), but Tuvok cannot do that. Neither will he show great anger and passion, which Braga also likes to bring out. For these reasons, Tuvok is a very unlikely choice for Braga to write about (and he seldom ever does).

It's the fact that unless you've come up with 'this week's reason why his logic and self control fails', he cannot express these emotions. That finality distingishes him from characters like Chakotay and Worf who Braga does like. Strong and silent types to a greater or lesser degree, they nevertheless have a inner fire that can be tapped in the most dire circumstances. Safe in that knowledge, he is free to write for those characters (as their sober serious attitude to life is something he clearly approves of).

I think with regard to Season 6, it is very a case of Braga liking the idea of uplifting stories in principle, but finding himself unable to actually engage with them himself. Particularly in TNG, he would always start his episodes with very light and charming sequences, showing the crew joking around and playing with Data's cat etc. Then he'd wade in with the horror.

And though the situations would always be resolved, it would rarely result in a truly happy ending. (I.e the episode would not end on nearly as carefree a note as it started). It suggests the idea of suffering being something important and something not to be forgotten.

Indeed he goes out of his way to show that suffering is an unfortunate fact of life. To be free and to feel safe, it is often necessary for people to become monstrous, such is the reality of life. The Viidians for example are not evil people, but they have become something awful out of necessity. The Ocampans following Suspira now need to fear nobody with their powers, but they had to become vicious and controlling people to do that.

All the way to Captain Ransom and his crew, who abandoned their morality out of the desperate need to stay alive and retain hope that they could get home. What authority does the Voyager crew have to judge him, he reasons, when they haven't known true suffering?

So when it comes to Season 6 and the onus is very much on family, friends, lovers, Gods and how they make your life happier and more complete etc, Braga finds himself in a difficult spot. He does have an affection for the innocent optimism of characters like Kim and Data, but he is rarely able to lift himself out of his pessismism to explore this.

Birthright pt 1 in TNG is a good example of an episode where he does this however. It shows Braga's inner desire for finding goodness in the world, as Data encounters visions of his father who is overjoyed to see how he has transcended his physical shell and become something truly wondrous. It's a rare moment where Braga allows himself to contemplate the miraculous instead of just the monstrous.

The season is however more in line with Joe Menosky whose stories always but always revolve around the connections between people and how important they are.

It's part of why he likes writing for Seven so much, because of that whole one person versus one collective thing. For Menosky, people are never more sad than when they are alone. I'd be surprised if the main idea for S6 didn't come from him, I really would.

As for poor old Paris... he really gets one hell of a beating from Braga. But Braga doesn't approve at all of characters like Riker and Paris and isn't shy of saying so in his episodes. He is always beating on them. Add to this that very few of the other writers seem to like Paris all that much as well (Jeri Taylor is about the only one, Michael Piller doesn't to mind him either) and it's a bleak outlook for the character.

Given the kind of character Paris initially is (before they take away his edgy danger and make him pretty goofy), it isn't hard to see why the writers give him (and Riker in TNG) the cold shoulder much of the time. He represents a kind of character, a kind of person that sci-fi writers would be unlikely to be wild about. (Kind of like asking horror film writers to be kind to university jocks etc).

Anyway, have to be going. Nice talking to you again, mein comrade.