Beta III Scope (Return of the Archons)

[Vger23]

Is the population of Beta III limited to the one region that the crew beams down to? It would seem to make sense for a number of different reasons. If the planet was populated fully, it would seem odd that Kirk and his group would just happen to be looking for the Archon survivors in the same city that Landru exists in. Also, since this is a totally controlled and arrested culture, it would seem to be reasonable that Landru limits the number of people so they can be monitored, controlled, directed, etc.

Thoughts?

 

[Vger23]

Mods- I don't know what happened, but the title of the thread should simply be "Beta III Scope (Return of the Archons)"

Can you fix? Sorry about that.

 

[Timo]

Well, there are two main scenarios there:

1) The planet only has one Town and one Valley, both run as a carefully controlled social experiment where the natural human tendency to conquer the entire planet is held in check. The Town is automatically the capital of Landru, which is why Landru's one and only mainframe is found underneath.

2) The planet is full of Towns and Valleys and Hills, some perhaps running out of sync, explaining why the first landing party wore the wrong clothes - they had scanned some other Town for hints. And every Town has a Landru Cave underneath, complete with a computer terminal. When Kirk kills Landru by "software means", the death is global, and every terminal under every Town goes down in a cloud of blue smoke and sparks.

In either scenario, the heroes might have found hints that the Archon crew visited this particular Town specifically. In 1, it is inevitable. In 2, orbital scans might have revealed telltale materials from 22nd century Federation in this very Town, but nothing definite or easily pinpointable, so the heroes never check up on, say, an obvious 22nd century communicator spotted 234 meters southeast of Main Square.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

Well, there are two main scenarios there:

1) The planet only has one Town and one Valley, both run as a carefully controlled social experiment where the natural human tendency to conquer the entire planet is held in check. The Town is automatically the capital of Landru, which is why Landru's one and only mainframe is found underneath.

2) The planet is full of Towns and Valleys and Hills, some perhaps running out of sync, explaining why the first landing party wore the wrong clothes - they had scanned some other Town for hints. And every Town has a Landru Cave underneath, complete with a computer terminal. When Kirk kills Landru by "software means", the death is global, and every terminal under every Town goes down in a cloud of blue smoke and sparks.

In either scenario, the heroes might have found hints that the Archon crew visited this particular Town specifically. In 1, it is inevitable. In 2, orbital scans might have revealed telltale materials from 22nd century Federation in this very Town, but nothing definite or easily pinpointable, so the heroes never check up on, say, an obvious 22nd century communicator spotted 234 meters southeast of Main Square.

Timo Saloniemi

Hmmm excellent points.

Is my memory playing tricks with me, or does the remastered version actually show a small settlement from orbit?

 

[johnnybear]

The ways of the valley are different to ours!
JB

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Well, there are two main scenarios there:

1) The planet only has one Town and one Valley, both run as a carefully controlled social experiment where the natural human tendency to conquer the entire planet is held in check. The Town is automatically the capital of Landru, which is why Landru's one and only mainframe is found underneath.

2) The planet is full of Towns and Valleys and Hills, some perhaps running out of sync, explaining why the first landing party wore the wrong clothes - they had scanned some other Town for hints. And every Town has a Landru Cave underneath, complete with a computer terminal. When Kirk kills Landru by "software means", the death is global, and every terminal under every Town goes down in a cloud of blue smoke and sparks.

In either scenario, the heroes might have found hints that the Archon crew visited this particular Town specifically. In 1, it is inevitable. In 2, orbital scans might have revealed telltale materials from 22nd century Federation in this very Town, but nothing definite or easily pinpointable, so the heroes never check up on, say, an obvious 22nd century communicator spotted 234 meters southeast of Main Square.

Timo Saloniemi

Choice 1) implies the worst.

Humans would never evolve in such a small place and stay there. If a geographic barrier did somehow restrict hominids to that region of Beta III, the people would never accrue much culture and technology, which are nursed by large populations, and exchanges with distant (very foreign) cultures.

Cultures are notably limited and primitive in isolated tribal populations. They even forget what they once knew: uncontacted Pacific islanders, and tribes of the deep South American forests, all descended from peoples of the prehistoric world who had many highly-developed skills pertaining to travel, construction, and keeping themselves fed. Once isolated, these tribes lost knowledge over the course of time.

So if Harry Townes' town is the only town around, then Landru is a lot more sinister than he's letting on. Landru would have to be like Anthony Fremont in "It's a Wonderful Life." The big mystery in that one was whether Anthony blocked out the rest of the world, or actually made it go away. His captives didn't know.

 

[Phaser Two]

I always wondered what was in "the valley." Lindstrom seemed to know something about it, but some of that might have been cut from the script, along with the explanation about Lindstrom fitting Sulu and O'Neil with the wrong-style outfits.

(Come to think of it, the latter might have been filmed and cut, as opposed to cut from the script. I haven't yet taken the time to savor my copy of Lost Scenes yet!)

 

[Timo]

The way the episode was aired, our heroes don't appear to know zip. The locals invent their cover story for them, immediately jumping to the conclusion that the strangers have come for the Festival, and from the Valley, whatever those are.

Choice 1) implies the worst.

Well, Landru more or less confesses to being so overzealous about protecting his people that he commits suicide over this. So the worst is sort of implied overall.

There's something brutally honest about a suicide, so we might just as well believe what Landru tells us (and further to interpret it through what Reger tells us about Landru, regardless of whether the old man is honest to his best personal knowledge, or under Landru's control). Apparently, the Betans evolved much like humans, and made Landru possible, but would have destroyed themselves (did destroy themselves?) unless enslaved by the AI. And the enslaving would involve the "evolved" environment without allowing for any actual evolution. Possibly the AI is offering them bliss in the form of a Golden Era. Possibly it is experimenting with various eras, swiftly rotating between those for the same reason it enforces the Festival, to keep the people from... Stagnating? Going even more mad? Stopping to provide data for further experimentation on this subject of making their lives perfect? Swift rotation would explain the clothing mishap just fine.

...Possibly it has already run out of social models or settings to experiment with, and is adopting foreign influences, so the Town is actually something gleaned from the Archons, and so was its previous incarnation with the older type of clothing.

Once isolated, these tribes lost knowledge over the course of time.

Landru's mind control is so direct, though, that the cultural amnesia here might well be enforced rather than natural. Which is why some old men still remember it all: it's not worth the hassle to force them to keep forgetting, as long as the young people are actively kept from either remembering or learning from the memories of others.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Well six thousand years ago the people of Landru's planet were destroying themselves and maybe that part of their world was unhabitable? Landru controlled the people's minds and emotions and they obeyed him totally until the zero hour when they were allowed to run wild and do what they like! A bit like the theme of the Purge movies but Trek did it first!
JB

 

[Phaser Two]

JB, we've talked about this before, but as far as I know The Purge took the idea from TOS *and* the idea was original to TOS. I'm more sure about the former.

 

[johnnybear]

JB, we've talked about this before, but as far as I know The Purge took the idea from TOS *and* the idea was original to TOS. I'm more sure about the former.

Well of course TOS did it first, Phase! I'm not saying the films did it first mate! I mean Trek did the story in 1966/67 and the Purge was what, 2009? I much prefer TOS than virtually anything on television today anyways, mate!
JB

 

[Phaser Two]

Well of course TOS did it first, Phase! I'm not saying the films did it first mate! I mean Trek did the story in 1966/67 and the Purge was what, 2009? I much prefer TOS than virtually anything on television today anyways, mate!
JB

No, no, no, I wasn't arguing with you at all, JB! Never!

I was just saying that you and I had discussed this before in the sense that, and to acknowledge that, I knew I was probably repeating myself. But the points I don't THINK I made when we talked previously about this are (1) the Purge writers have now directly acknowledged Return of the Archons as their source material AND (2) I think the idea of a "Red Hour" might have been a completely original concept that did not exist before TOS. Maybe someone more familiar with fantasy/sci-fi than I - Greg Cox or Christopher perhaps? - might know for sure about the latter. It could very well be that there is an Asimov or Philip K. Dick story or something even older with a Red Hour-type concept. If not, then Roddenberry and/or Boris Sobelman (probably Roddenberry) came up with it on their own, which is awesome to me.

And JB, I love lots of current drama series - in the last 10 years, Mad Men, Boardwalk Empire and Black Sails have been my favorites. I also watch all of the DC superhero shows like Supergirl, The Flash, Arrow, etc. But you're right - almost nothing measures up to TOS. Nothing!

 

[The Old Mixer]

Landru would have to be like Anthony Fremont in "It's a Wonderful Life."

"It's a Good Life"
It's a Wonderful Life

 

[Lakenheath 72]

According to the episode, the computer Landru directed the lives of millions of Humans living on the planet.

 

[Timo]

Quite true. But "millions" is low for a planet, even if it is high for a town.

Not that it would be completely out of place for a planet that "naturally" lives in these 19th century trappings. But we already know the setting is far from natural, and the Town and its surrounding landscape might just as well account for the "millions".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

According to the episode, the computer Landru directed the lives of millions of Humans living on the planet.

Well, Spock says ir was "capable of".

SPOCK: Marvelous.
KIRK: What?
SPOCK: The late Landru, Captain. A marvelous feat of engineering. A computer capable of directing the lives of millions of human beings.
KIRK: But only a machine, Mister Spock. The original Landru programmed it with all his knowledge but he couldn't give it his wisdom, his compassion, his understanding, his soul, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Predictably metaphysical. I prefer the concrete, the graspable, the provable.
KIRK: You'd make a splendid computer, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: That is very kind of you, Captain.​

 

[Timo]

Yup. Spock is famed for jumping to seemingly unfounded conclusions. Is this one of those? Or is he judging the capabilities of Landru by its demonstrated performance?

Landru might of course already have demonstrated the ability to shepherd millions even if the planet only housed tens of thousands. It would have needed to tend to 6,000 years' worth of generations, after all, potentially micromanaging each and every one of the lives.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

Yup. Spock is famed for jumping to seemingly unfounded conclusions. Is this one of those? Or is he judging the capabilities of Landru by its demonstrated performance?

Landru might of course already have demonstrated the ability to shepherd millions even if the planet only housed tens of thousands. It would have needed to tend to 6,000 years' worth of generations, after all, potentially micromanaging each and every one of the lives.

Timo Saloniemi

Perhaps he meant millions of lives over the 6,000 year period.

 

[johnnybear]

No, no, no, I wasn't arguing with you at all, JB! Never!

I was just saying that you and I had discussed this before in the sense that, and to acknowledge that, I knew I was probably repeating myself. But the points I don't THINK I made when we talked previously about this are (1) the Purge writers have now directly acknowledged Return of the Archons as their source material AND (2) I think the idea of a "Red Hour" might have been a completely original concept that did not exist before TOS. Maybe someone more familiar with fantasy/sci-fi than I - Greg Cox or Christopher perhaps? - might know for sure about the latter. It could very well be that there is an Asimov or Philip K. Dick story or something even older with a Red Hour-type concept. If not, then Roddenberry and/or Boris Sobelman (probably Roddenberry) came up with it on their own, which is awesome to me.

And JB, I love lots of current drama series - in the last 10 years, Mad Men, Boardwalk Empire and Black Sails have been my favorites. I also watch all of the DC superhero shows like Supergirl, The Flash, Arrow, etc. But you're right - almost nothing measures up to TOS. Nothing!

No probs, Phase! I was thinking about getting Broadwalk Empire but is it as good as the Sopranos? That was a great show in an era of trash I always thought, mate!
JB

 

[Phaser Two]

No probs, Phase! I was thinking about getting Broadwalk Empire but is it as good as the Sopranos? That was a great show in an era of trash I always thought, mate!
JB

I would say they're very comparable in terms of quality and even storylines. BE has the added period era, which they did a really good job with, including some great incorporation of historical events. Most people will say Sopranos was better but I bet you'll really enjoy BE. I went in not really a fan of Steve Buscemi and he was outstanding. Give it a shot!