Actually, yes, that is what it means. If you follow the common Trek standard of "if it wasn't on-screen, it's not canon." The good news is that they had Abraham Lincoln (and a Rock Monster, but that's a different issue I'd think *grin*).Well, Martin Luther King, Jr. was never mentioned by name nor a photograph of him was ever shown, so does that mean he is non-canon too in the Star Trek universe?
Best Trek Episode ever- Far Beyond the stars
- Thread starter EricBlair
- Start date
Cyke--Frankly, that makes me angrier. It bugs me that all these Hollywood types seem to think that the majority of the population needs to have their face rubbed in their ancestors' sins all the time. When will we be allowed to recover from the shame? When will EVERYBODY actually FORGIVE each other instead of playing this constant tit-for-tat game?
Really, when I posted up those quotes, it was to counter the belief from another poster that the episode was a self-congratulatory show "Look how far we've gotten in fighting racism!" when it was Brooks' attempt to show the opposite, to show "Look how vigilant we always have to be in the face of racism." It's not quite the same issue that you bring up, for or against it. In this case, I'm more concerned about the creators' intent, and you have to admit, there's a big difference in the two intentions I just mapped out.
On the other hand, did the episode actually show Sisko/Russell fighting the others out of anger? I don't think so, especially since some of the others were swayed towards his side (a sign of forgiveness on somebody's part, but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to whose).
Good Will Riker
Admiral
Quite frankly, this has been unspoken by many Niners up until now, but I would not be surprised if more than a few fans have thought of this in their minds:
The real racism of DS9 is in the fact that the producers cast their first African American commanding officer of Star Trek and had the audacity to not develop him and leave him as a blank slate during the course of its first 2 seasons.
It is ludicrous for any TV show out there to go for 2 seasons without developing its main character. This is simply unheard of and inexcusable on the part of this show's producers and writers whose production team was a "well-oiled machine" by then with 5.5 seasons of TNG under their belts.
Here is what Curtis Jackson ("50 Cent") had to say about this matter:
news link - http://us.imdb.com/news/ni0606175/
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I'm not sure that's really racism... The same could be said for a number of characters in the franchise. This is where my point could work against me because my examples were going to be Worf, Harry Kim, Mayweather, Hoshi and Malcolm Reed (that's some trans-Atlantic racism right there).
As I recall, Dr Crusher, Troi and Tom Paris had very little to do a lot of the time other than sitting on the bridge. With Crusher and Troi in particular, it felt like they only appeared once in a blue moon as they had so little to do. Kes also didn't really get any meaty stories until well into season 3 of Voyager.
I think it's more a case of writers just find certain characters easier to write for - Sisko wasn't particularly easy, in my opinion. Outside of being a "grieving widower" there didn't seem to be much to expand upon. He seemed to be quite broody early on, and ill at ease with his position as both station commander and Emissary. Given that the political and religious stories weren't hugely successful at the time of first airing, they might've chosen to avoid developing this side of him for the sake of viewing figures.
On the other hand, I think the father/son dynamic with Jake is quite unique for Star Trek and it's something the writers got instantly right. Showing such a caring side for a man in such a stressful position was quite a difficult thing to pull off. And having known Curzon, this allowed for little bits of nostalgia between Sisko and Dax.
I think we've also got to take into account that the majority of the cast for DS9 is non-human, and therefore the scope for exploring new races with their issues (namely Bajorans, Cardassians, Trill, Odo before discovering the Founders, AND the new races from the Gamma Quadrant) was probably an opportunity to good to pass up. For this reason, I'd argue that Bashir, at least, was also a little ignored originally. O'Brien having a family gave the writers a reason to keep fleshing out his life off duty.
Sorry about the long post, but I vehemently (triple word score) believe that there is no racism, intentional or otherwise, directed at Avery Brooks or his character.
Just as an aside - was it really that a big a deal in America to have a lead who wasn't an average 30-40 year old white man? I understand the execs went into major meltdown over Janeway, but if it really was such an issue, I find that quite odd. With both Janeway and Sisko, it was just never that much of a big deal in the UK to see them in a position of command... I can't wrap my head around the idea that even as late as the early 90s, old prejudices may still have been playing a part.
My favorite Trek episode is In the Pale Moonlight. Second and third place would be The Visitor and Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast, respectively. Fourth would probably be The Siege of AR-558 and fifth would probably be The Wire. So while a very good episode, this one doesn't even make my top 5 of DS9, let alone all of Trek.
However, I WILL concede that is is very good - probably in my top 15 episodes of DS9.
However, I WILL concede that is is very good - probably in my top 15 episodes of DS9.
Two things:
1. They went SEVEN season without developing Picard, so that dog don't hunt.
2. If you do not stop using this forum to find any excuse possible spew your political crap about Obama, it will be a warning for spamming. For the SECOND time, Obama does not have one damn thing to do with DS9. So knock it off.
Good Will Riker
Admiral
How many British TV shows do you know that feature a non-caucasian in a lead role? Can you name at least 5 TV shows that have been produced in the United Kingdom in the last 10 years that have featured a black, an Asian, or a latino as the show's central character?
Or, for that matter, does the United Kingdom have any major stars or superstars like Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, and Denzel Washington who are black British who are headliners and the central characters -- not just co-stars, or strong supporting characters, but the first name in the opening credits and the name above the title in motion pictures -- of films that are generally produced in the United Kingdom? Unless you can name 10 that have come out in the last 5 years (which is only an average of 2 films per year out of hundreds of films produced in the UK), it is apparent by engaging in conversations with the non-caucasians around you that racism/discrimination/segregation/ethnic stereotyping/racial profiling is still quite real and prevalent nowadays in our westernized world.
Representation is important in the United States, whether it is in films, academia, work place, and politics (local and national) as it is quite evident in the way the United States and the rest of the world is responding to Barack Obama's recent election to the presidency of the United States. Which is why having non-caucasian leads and female leads on a TV show and in feature films, non-caucasian and female American politicans, and non-caucasian and female CEOs in a white male dominated society like the United States and other Anglospheric countries like Australia, Canada, UK, South Africa, and the rest of Europe is a big deal to those non-caucasian and female citizens who also want fair and equal representation among the political-military-corporate structures that are in charge of running the rest of the world.
I don't mean any offense, but I don't think this is the right place to discuss social/political issues regarding racial representation. I'm happy to discuss it, but just not here... This isn't the first thread I've seen be sidetracked by political discussions - I'm here to forget about how big, bad and complicated the real world is and just talk Trek (I'll be the first to admit that I probably need to spend my time being more productive 
)
We're here to discuss if Far Beyond The Stars was the best episode, not if it was meant as a commentary on late 90s racial equality. I've cast my vote of The Siege of AR-558 and I demand that episode gets more support
I see someone else mentioned it, so that's good enough for me.
Edit - just noticed PKTrekGirl's post, so consider the discussion closed in this thread on my side.
)We're here to discuss if Far Beyond The Stars was the best episode, not if it was meant as a commentary on late 90s racial equality. I've cast my vote of The Siege of AR-558 and I demand that episode gets more support
I see someone else mentioned it, so that's good enough for me.Edit - just noticed PKTrekGirl's post, so consider the discussion closed in this thread on my side.
For the most part, I'd agree with you there (except I agree with PKTrekGirl's point about Picard), but as I said before, I'm much more concerned with how much you distorted the intent of the episode from one end of the spectrum to a completely different end, especially without taking into account the intent of a minority director.
And also... I'd hardly call 50 Cent a bastion of racial tolerance. I expect doors for black, asian, latino, etc. actors to open up, but I don't expect his "acting" skills (or his ability to add to social topic discourse) to improve.
Also funny: how no one really mentions minority-on-minority racism, either. My Asian aunt is very suspicious of Blacks and West Asians, for no other good reason than, really, what other people tell her. That in itself is disturbing, but that also tells me that I myself have to be vigilant that racism crosses all kinds of streets.
"Far beyone the Stars" is a good episode. A few of my favorite episodes are...
1) Past Tense pt 1
2) Past Tense pt2
3) In the Pale Moonlight
4) Empok Nor
5) The Ship
This is in no-way a complete list, and I do have others that tomorrow might replace the 5 above, however, I think that these episodes represent a good cross section of DS-9 shows
1) Past Tense pt 1
2) Past Tense pt2
3) In the Pale Moonlight
4) Empok Nor
5) The Ship
This is in no-way a complete list, and I do have others that tomorrow might replace the 5 above, however, I think that these episodes represent a good cross section of DS-9 shows
Good Will Riker
Admiral
Coming from an anti-TNG fan, your comments are unvalid and biased (like your personality.).
You could have done better than that?
Deanna Troi, Katharine Pulaski, and Tasha Yar being better examples of non-character development.
On the contrary, Picard, Data, Worf, and early-Riker were actually among the main characters who actually received significant character development on TNG.
Georgia is one of the "red states," ain't it?
Figures.
If a DS9 classic like "Far Beyond the Stars" can still open up a discussion and debate on race and racism over 10 years after its initial broadcast, then it has done the job that it set out to do all along...marvelously.
Good job, Mr. Brooks. I hope today's societies around the world understood the issues presented in your episode, because we still have a lot to improve in real life in regards to racism, race issues, and race relations around the world.
It is almost better to have Hollywood hire more Asian American, Indian American, and African American writers and producers who understand their communities better in the United States than writers who are unfamiliar with the insights and sociodynamics of our multi-ethnic American communities, who may write stereotypical and potentially offensive materials about them.
Hollywood, like virtually anywhere in the United States, is run by white CEOs. It is more about who is in power and who they like to see as the majority in charge. With the demographics of North America (United States, Canada, Mexico) becoming more-and-more like a true "melting pot" and a true multi-ethnic society today, we will see more multi-ethnic representation in films, television, radio, and the news media real soon and in the decades to come.
The way you word it like that, you may give off the erroneous impression that all Asians are racist against other races, which is not true.
You do realize that Anglospheric societies (United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, United Kingdom) as well as many European nations generally do not distinguish between "Asians from the East" and "Asian Americans" (Asian Brits, Asian Canadians, Asian Australians, Asian Kiwis, Asian South Africans, etc.) like you and me.
So, if the "Asians from the East" generally have this reputation of being racist against other cultures, that does not apply to Asian Americans like you and me who grew up in the United States and are just as "American" as everyone else who were born here (Although, I am sick and tired of some members of other race communities in the United States who still do not understand the concept of "Asian Americans" as being "Americans of Asian descent" who grew up in the United States, rather than being stereotyped with offensive racist slurs like "chop suey" or the ever offensive "ching, ching, chong, chong, chong!" when they fucking know Asia is on the cutting edge of the latest advances in technology thus living in a modernized, westernized world with high rise buildings and modern-day cars, rather than some rice paddy out in the middle of nowhere with some old skinny man in oriental clothes pulling a rickshaw! That's like saying all Scots still live in castles and wear kilts, when we know that they produced Sean Connery, and that all Irish dress like leprachans when we know they are advanced enough to afford a project like the now defunct (due to expenses) like the U2 building! Give me a break...
I personally hate racism in all forms, but what I find more offensive is being targeted and put under a microscope and being asked what I think of "rice" and "kimchi" looking at me under a condescending "oriental lens" when I fucking grew up in the United States - Southern Fucking California, bitch! (Not you, those ignorant fucks out there who want to "pull the chink out of you!"). My parents are "the immigrants" and they don't care when people condescend them about their English, their food, their apperance, their customs, and their traditions, but I do because I am "American" who speak English 100% of the time, and immersed in American media all the time, and grew up reading American textbooks while having a lot of caucasian, latino, black, and Asian American friends around him.
There are too many, ignorant, racist airheads in this country who need to read up on "real American history" for a change from President Barack Obama, Asian American Professor Frank H. Wu, and Caesar Chavez rather than the censored US history textbooks that were taught to us from Grades K-12 (The G-rated and "whitewashed version" of American history.).
I can't reconcile those two statements in your (singular) post. You appear to be stereotyping in the former, but warning against it in the latter?
And as for the topic, DS9 is not a Trek I can say I have any particular "favorites." (I define "favorites" as those I can and/or want to watch repeatedly) It's somewhat like being asked which of your kids is your favorite, when your focus is on the entire family. Now other Treks, I certainly have favorites, but not DS9 per se.' There are episodes I liked better than others, but none that really overwhelm the majority and become my "favorite." (but I'm in the minority in that I liked the first two seasons as well *grin*) On the other hand, if push came to shove, I could probably come up with least favorites. *grin*
Good Will Riker
Admiral
Just for the record, I do have Asian American friends who are from Georgia, so I am as open as you can get when it comes to the inclusion of all races in any given region of the United States of America.
The state of Georgia went overwhelmingly "red" in voting for John McCain, and that is a fact.
The last I heard, the United States of America was a democratic country where freedom of speech mattered, and The Civil Rights and African American history is the very reason why we have an actor like Avery Brooks cast as Captain Benjamin Sisko on DS9 in the first place. To leave race and politics out of the very discussions on a DS9 forum is like practicing the same form of discrimination that Pabst character employed in "Far Beyond the Stars."
Comparisons between real life historical figures with that of fictional characters have been done before in Star Trek (i.e. James T. Kirk's admiration of President Abraham Lincoln, and Kathryn Janeway's admiration of Leonardo DaVinci being good examples.).
Of all forums, DS9 should be the forum that is the most open and engaging in political debates and the society around us, rather than being inclusive and discussing DS9 episodes exclusively. By doing that, you miss the whole point of DS9 in the first place?
Good Will Riker
Admiral
"Far Beyond the Stars" - the state of race relations in the 1950's compared to race relations today.What the fuck has all of this to do with Deep Space Nine?
In otherwords, by deconstructing this very episode for discussion, it is quite apparent that bigotry and racism still exists today.
Best Trek Episode ever - nah, not close.
Best DS9 episode ever? Yeah, I think so.
Best DS9 episode ever? Yeah, I think so.
Ah yes, the age old "I have a friend who is [fill_in_blank], so I can't be against [repeat_fill_in_blank]." Heard it before.
And that's your answer to whether you were for or against stereotyping? ('The Majority of Georgia voted X, so All Georgians are X').
(although I admit, I always enjoy the "freedom of speech" argument on privately owned BBS's with international members, as it cracks me up that people confuse BBS's with the American Government)
I also find irony that here someone is making accusations of racism yet engages in another form of broadbrushing. So because Georgia went overwhelmingly Republican means that they did it because they're racist? Give me a break.
As they say in Georgia...that dog ain't gonna hunt.
As they say in Georgia...that dog ain't gonna hunt.
Good Will Riker
Admiral
I never implied racism, and that is not what I meant.
PKTrekGirl has the habit of censoring and locking up any post that deals with the man in my avatar, so there clearly is a bias there when all other forums have no problems with it except her.
However, Georgia is one of many southern and midwestern states in the United States that voted overwhelmingly for John McCain, and that there is a fact.
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