Best metal for the job

[All Seeing Eye]

I've always been fascinated with swords and i've always imagined having a sword made entirely from Gold or Titanium because i've always thought that having one made from those metals would make them pretty strong.

But truth be told they're probably not the lightest and strongest metals or indeed alloys around.

In another thread talking about a Bat'leth I mentioned making one out of Tungsten Carbide because I was under the impression that Tungsten Carbide was extremely durable, almost unbreakable and scratch proof but I was proven otherwise.

So please tell me, if cost was not at all a factor because I was a millionaire just what metal or alloy would be best to make a sword or Bat'leth with?
What metal or alloy is both the lightest and strongest?

 

[Jadzia]

Mithril is what you need.

The two factors I think you're trying to optimise are: Highest Yield Stress and Lowest Density. But you generally can't perfect one without crippling the other.

Lithium I think is the lightest, but it's also softer than cheese. No good for a sword.

Due to it's density, Uranium is possibly of the strongest, but it's heavier than gold. You wouldn't be able to wield the sword.

But titanium is credited as being both light and strong. It's possibly the best choice.

Some ceramics or types of glass may be of interest to you too, if you're willing to leave the world of metals.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Some ceramics or types of glass may be of interest to you too, if you're willing to leave the world of metals.

But woudn't ceramic and glass just shatter upon contact with another object?

 

[Jadzia]

Some ceramics or types of glass may be of interest to you too, if you're willing to leave the world of metals.

But woudn't ceramic and glass just shatter upon contact with another object?

I take it you've never hurled an old crt television into the skips at the tip, and then seen the person next to you throw a concrete flagstone straight down onto the glass screen, and watch it bounce off?

 

[JNG]

But titanium is credited as being both light and strong. It's possibly the best choice.

No. Titanium holds an edge well over time, but it's a lousy edge to start with. It just doesn't sharpen up like a good steel will.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Are you talking about Polycarbonates?

How about a glass sword coated with Titanium and plated with Tungsten carbide.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

Some ceramics or types of glass may be of interest to you too, if you're willing to leave the world of metals.

But woudn't ceramic and glass just shatter upon contact with another object?

You want something with very strong molecular bonds but after that the definition varies a bit, how does your material react to wear and tear, to strength, how does it react to heat and coldness? I think most people think of toughness in very simple terms like brittleness,
if you drop this bottle will it break!?


latest generations of ceramic materials can be extremely strong due to chemical engineering,
think bullet proof glass etc
- where as a gun fired at a normal hard object like a traditional metal sword will possibly shatter the sword in two.

You don't want anything so heavy it becomes impossible to lift, carbon-fibre reinforced plastic are lightweight and more applicable, you also want something hard with slight flexibility but not something deform if somebody hits your sword sideways and it ends up looking bent, deformed.

Some modern plastics are extremely hard but are not heat resistant
other man made material like space shuttle tiles are extremely heat resistant but are extremely fragile and will break apart if you knock on them

I read one US Lab used Spiders web to produce some rope of extraordinary strength, it even caught bullets. Although how you would transform a Spiders web into a sword is beyond my understanding, maybe you could use it as a whip or nunchucks or something.

 

[Kemaiku]

Try the "Defender" company, they sell personal defense weapons and supplied the sword the operator used in Serenity. I have a half length version (they come in various sizes) but usually they make them from incredibly hard ceramic/steel blends.

They appear black with only the length of the blade itself being exposed metal about a millimetre deep, 'very' sharp. I have both the half-sword and a small axe and I'm quite impressed with the quality of both for the price.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Try the "Defender" company, they sell personal defense weapons and supplied the sword the operator used in Serenity. I have a half length version (they come in various sizes) but usually they make them from incredibly hard ceramic/steel blends.

They appear black with only the length of the blade itself being exposed metal about a millimetre deep, 'very' sharp. I have both the half-sword and a small axe and I'm quite impressed with the quality of both for the price.

Very interesting to know, but the question remains: Could a sword be made that is stronger, lighter and more durable than those swords?

Remember that money isn't a problem.

I mean there are tons of different alloys out there such as Titanium-Zirconium alloy. I mean surely there is an alloy out there that is the real shindig.

I read somewhere that there is an alloy composed of 86% titanium, 6% aluminum, 6% vanadium, 2% tin and it's the strongest alloy in the world.

 

[Jadzia]

Sometimes you'd want plenty of weight in a hand weapon, so that it has good inertia when swung, making it less easily deflected. From the way we see Bat'leths being wielded, I'd think that as much weight as the user could comfortably handle would be preferred.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Sometimes you'd want plenty of weight in a hand weapon, so that it has good inertia when swung, making it less easily deflected. From the way we see Bat'leths being wielded, I'd think that as much weight as the user could comfortably handle would be preferred.

But that's not always the case. If the oponent swings at you you could easily block it with a lighter Bat'leth if it's a strong alloy and then quickly swing back and attack. With your Bat'leth being lighter you can be far faster and more maneuverable than your oponent. They could swing at you with their heavy Bat'leth but because you're faster you could deflect it and then slash them to bits with multiple fast attacks.

I'd be interested to find out what is stronger, a Titanium alloy comprising:

3% Aluminium, 8% Vanadium, 6% Chromium, 4% Zirconium, 4% Molybdenum and 0.04% to 0.08% Palladium

or a Titanium Alloy comprising of

4.5% Aluminium, 2% Molybdenum, 1.6% Vanadium, 0.5% Iron, and 0.3% Silicon.

I mean how does one know which alloy is both stronger and lighter?
Titanium alloys are categorised in 'grades' between 1 and 38.

 

[Jadzia]

I mean how does one know which alloy is both stronger and lighter?
Titanium alloys are categorised in 'grades' between 1 and 38.

This is a start
http://www.titaniuminfogroup.co.uk/media/Data_sheet_21_Titanium_alloys.pdf

Or you can trawl matweb for each of the titanium alloys (they're in the non-ferrous section) and it will tell your their hardness, density, etc

Have fun

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Fanks.

 

[Kemaiku]

Try the "Defender" company, they sell personal defense weapons and supplied the sword the operator used in Serenity. I have a half length version (they come in various sizes) but usually they make them from incredibly hard ceramic/steel blends.

They appear black with only the length of the blade itself being exposed metal about a millimetre deep, 'very' sharp. I have both the half-sword and a small axe and I'm quite impressed with the quality of both for the price.

Very interesting to know, but the question remains: Could a sword be made that is stronger, lighter and more durable than those swords?

They're relatively cheap, about £40-60 for the full sized sword given the low cost of the materials, and aren't heavy. As for durability the ceramic-steel is pretty hard, there are stronger alloys including I think some Zinc enhanced blades but those need more care with the exposed metal.

Apart from the links above on Titanium alloys, you might want to look into Metallic/Non-metallic composite blades starting with the carbon-steel kind. Those tarnish very little compared to metal alone and are quite light and sharp over time.

 

[JNG]

They're relatively cheap, about £40-60 for the full sized sword given the low cost of the materials, and aren't heavy. As for durability the ceramic-steel is pretty hard, there are stronger alloys including I think some Zinc enhanced blades but those need more care with the exposed metal.

Apart from the links above on Titanium alloys, you might want to look into Metallic/Non-metallic composite blades starting with the carbon-steel kind. Those tarnish very little compared to metal alone and are quite light and sharp over time.

Zinc/aluminum alloy blades are nonfunctional and designed only for practice. I've broken them just with a draw.

Titanium holds a lousy edge, as I've already noted, and real swords are not made of titanium.

No real sword is available for the price you have described. That is known as a "sword-like object" or SLO and are intended only for decoration or practice/play.

Real swords are made of heat-treated and tempered carbon steel. There are cheapos for only several hundred dollars made of carbon steel, but they are usually made using a stock removal process and are unlikely to undergo serious finishing processes.

"Swords" you can purchase below the $1500-$2000 range are toys.

To my knowledge, there is no superalloy of which swords could be made if only enough money were available. Swords are made of carbon steel because it is best for the job; the art, including the process of materials refinement, developed over centuries and did not arrive at modern conclusions about materials by accident.

Certain kinds of exotic special-purpose weapons might make use of very dense materials like depleted uranium on occasion, but for edged weapons the applications are minimal, and nothing like this would be a sword in the true sense. There is also some room for development in the diamond edging process; while it hasn't been proven for weapons on any kind of major scale yet, I am reliably informed that it offers potential. False-advertised analogues of this process which offer little or no cutting value have become more widespread; however, as the means to make artificial diamonds continue to advance, we may see the real thing gain in prominence. It's very different from applications for tools like a saw. Even though I think this stuff won't go anywhere for swords and other cutting weapons, I'll mention it here in the sci-fi spirit of the thread.

 

[backstept]

it was mentioned upthread that there needs to be a balance in strength and flexibility in a blade . . . it needs to be hard to hold an edge, and soft enough to take heavy blows without shattering

I think that the harder the alloy, the more brittle the blade.
hardness/=strength
there has to be some sort of give in the blade so that it won't just snap

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Gold? Strong? Bzzzzt. Wrong answer, Taccy, but thanks for playing.

As far as metals are concerned, gold has similar properties to lead. In no way, shape, or form is it worthy to make an edged weapon from.

Also depending on the weapon, light weight may not be an advantage since lots of the damage is due to plain old kinetic energy. Epees, foils, and to some degree, schlagers depend more on poking instead of stabbing, so light weight would be advantageous. Larger, swing and cut type weapons to a much lesser degree.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Forget metal, I would recommend Carbon fiber reinforced polymer.

 

[Darth Picardous]

Platinum.

 

[hyzmarca]

They're relatively cheap, about £40-60 for the full sized sword given the low cost of the materials, and aren't heavy. As for durability the ceramic-steel is pretty hard, there are stronger alloys including I think some Zinc enhanced blades but those need more care with the exposed metal.

Apart from the links above on Titanium alloys, you might want to look into Metallic/Non-metallic composite blades starting with the carbon-steel kind. Those tarnish very little compared to metal alone and are quite light and sharp over time.

Zinc/aluminum alloy blades are nonfunctional and designed only for practice. I've broken them just with a draw.

Titanium holds a lousy edge, as I've already noted, and real swords are not made of titanium.

No real sword is available for the price you have described. That is known as a "sword-like object" or SLO and are intended only for decoration or practice/play.

Real swords are made of heat-treated and tempered carbon steel. There are cheapos for only several hundred dollars made of carbon steel, but they are usually made using a stock removal process and are unlikely to undergo serious finishing processes.

"Swords" you can purchase below the $1500-$2000 range are toys.

To my knowledge, there is no superalloy of which swords could be made if only enough money were available. Swords are made of carbon steel because it is best for the job; the art, including the process of materials refinement, developed over centuries and did not arrive at modern conclusions about materials by accident.

Certain kinds of exotic special-purpose weapons might make use of very dense materials like depleted uranium on occasion, but for edged weapons the applications are minimal, and nothing like this would be a sword in the true sense. There is also some room for development in the diamond edging process; while it hasn't been proven for weapons on any kind of major scale yet, I am reliably informed that it offers potential. False-advertised analogues of this process which offer little or no cutting value have become more widespread; however, as the means to make artificial diamonds continue to advance, we may see the real thing gain in prominence. It's very different from applications for tools like a saw. Even though I think this stuff won't go anywhere for swords and other cutting weapons, I'll mention it here in the sci-fi spirit of the thread.

It seems that someone got it right, though I will dispute that sub-$1500 swords are just toys. There are several modern manufacturers who mass produce high-quality swords for less than $1000. Companies such as Albion, Cheness, and Generation 2 , produce some very high quality swords relatively cheaply.

The key difference between a moderately expensive heat treated carbon steel sword (sub $600) and a very expensive heat treated carbon steel sword (over $1000) is historical accuracy. Those that make very expensive swords tend to go out of their way to ensure the historical accuracy of the blade, sometimes going so far as to use the same techniques that a historical smith would have used. That doesn't make the sword better, sometimes it actually makes the sword worse, in fact, due to the superiority of modern steel. You can get a pretty decent sword for less than $300 if you know what to look for. It won't be espectially pretty, but it will cut.

This guide can be very useful and provides reviews of several low cost swords.
http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/


But back to the original topic, if cost were not a factor, the best sword steel is damascus steel, everyone who knows of it will tell you that. Damascus steel has some unique properties, the most notable being the presence of carbon nanotubes in it's structure. These make it both flexible, durable, and give it superior edge-holding potential, if it is forged correctly.

The only problem is that Damascus steel doesn't exist anymore. The mines where the iron ore used to make it have long since ran dry, and it is believed that some unique properties of that ore may have contributed to the formation of the nanostructures. The exact processes used to make it have also been lost and forgotten, while it is believed to be related to wootz steel, no one really knows for sure.

And there lies the problem.

In order to get real Damascus steel, you need a time machine and a guy who speaks arabic.

There are some blades that are advertised as being made from damascus steel. This is untrue, but unintentionally so. For some time, it had been believed that damascus blades were the result of a process called pattern welding, which involves laminating several different steels together to produce a very pretty looking steel with the averaged properties of its constintuient steels. Microscopic examination of actual damascus blades has pretty much destroyed this hypothesis, but it is still customary to refer to pattern welded blades as damascus steel blades, for marketing purposes.