Berman Memoirs

[Trent Roman]

According to everyone I've ever discussed the matter with behind the scenes (who WOULD talk about the situation), Berman was the reason gays were excluded from Star Trek.

Well now. I was not aware that Berman was at fault for that, or indeed that it could be traced to any one person beyond the general conservatism of the industry. If true, that's something of a perspective-changer. Being incompetant is one thing; being a bigot is quite another.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[BillJ]

According to everyone I've ever discussed the matter with behind the scenes (who WOULD talk about the situation), Berman was the reason gays were excluded from Star Trek.

Well now. I was not aware that Berman was at fault for that, or indeed that it could be traced to any one person beyond the general conservatism of the industry. If true, that's something of a perspective-changer. Being incompetant is one thing; being a bigot is quite another.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

I would need to see some proof. Exactly because of the examples I listed above.

 

[neogothboy74]

Well there were TNG's "The Outcast" and DS9's "Rejoined".

There were many gay references and analogies in Trek, if you look for them, which is why I have a hard time understanding bigots being fans of Trek, or people being surprised that LGBT characters show up in the books. Yet that's not the same as including a LGBT character in the series. By not including them a precident for a subtle sort of bigotry was displayed. It's a sort of discrimination that should never have been tolerated for any series, yet stands out like a sore thumb for a franchise that from the beginning has been about Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

But Berman was a "trains run on time" producer, I don't think he would ever put anything on that he would think would offend his audience.

That's no excuse. No matter what you put out there you're going to offend someone. And attempting to use such tactics to defend discrimination is pathetic. That kind of explanation should be doubly offensive to a Trek audience, the mother series of which broke all kinds of ground in this area, featuring several minorites before it was popular or PC to do so. The lack of inclusion in the later Treks of LGBT characters (or other minorities) is aggrivating and cowardly - and sadly makes Star Trek seem far behind the times rather that the trail blazer that it was in the beginning.

Thankfully, Trek Lit has moved beyond the series in this regard and has populated the books with the more realistic diversity of the human condition that exists here on Earth. I'm actually (slowly) working on a webpage devoted to LGBT inclusive Trek. And I thank all the Trek authors, writers, and any others who fought for such change both on the shows (those little references did matter) and in the books / comics / games. Because this gay Trek fan has appreciated all of it.

 

[BillJ]

Well there were TNG's "The Outcast" and DS9's "Rejoined".

There were many gay references and analogies in Trek, if you look for them, which is why I have a hard time understanding bigots being fans of Trek, or people being surprised that LGBT characters show up in the books. Yet that's not the same as including a LGBT character in the series. By not including them a precident for a subtle sort of bigotry was displayed. It's a sort of discrimination that should never have been tolerated for any series, yet stands out like a sore thumb for a franchise that from the beginning has been about Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

Either he was trying to keep "the Gays" out or he wasn't. You can't have it both ways.

But Berman was a "trains run on time" producer, I don't think he would ever put anything on that he would think would offend his audience.

That's no excuse. No matter what you put out there you're going to offend someone. And attempting to use such tactics to defend discrimination is pathetic. That kind of explanation should be doubly offensive to a Trek audience, the mother series of which broke all kinds of ground in this area, featuring several minorites before it was popular or PC to do so. The lack of inclusion in the later Treks of LGBT characters (or other minorities) is aggrivating and cowardly - and sadly makes Star Trek seem far behind the times rather that the trail blazer that it was in the beginning.

Rick Berman's job was to get as many people to watch Star Trek as possible. Nothing more, nothing less. He made a judgement call that having a 'regular' gay character would drive away more people then it would bring in. Right or wrong, it was a judgement call on his part. In essence, his job was to make as much money as possible for Paramount, not to cater to people.

Thankfully, Trek Lit has moved beyond the series in this regard and has populated the books with the more realistic diversity of the human condition that exists here on Earth. I'm actually (slowly) working on a webpage devoted to LGBT inclusive Trek. And I thank all the Trek authors, writers, and any others who fought for such change both on the shows (those little references did matter) and in the books / comics / games. Because this gay Trek fan has appreciated all of it.

Besides the T’Prynn/ Anna Sandesjo tryst on Vanguard I’m really having a hard time picking out any other ‘gay regulars’ in TrekLit.

All-in-all, I refuse to charge Rick Berman with sinister motives in this case just because someone said so.

 

[BillJ]

Besides the T’Prynn/ Anna Sandesjo tryst on Vanguard I’m really having a hard time picking out any other ‘gay regulars’ in TrekLit.

I forgot about the un-joined Trill from Titan. Even then his role was reduced with the introduction of Tuvok into the series.

 

[Andy Mangels]

Well there were TNG's "The Outcast" and DS9's "Rejoined". EDIT: Plus there was TNG's "The Host"

Ah yes...

The Outcast, in which all the gender-neutral roles were played by obvious women, DESPITE the actor's stated preference and willingness to have some played by men to really challenge assumptions. The episode in which the gender-neutrals ganged up on the heterosexual romance and persecuted the heterosexuals. Wow, that sure sends a positive message.

Rejoined, in which the character was originally to have been played by a man, but which the producers changed to a woman. But which featured characters that changed genders, and the only reason they were two women together was chance, not innate attraction to same gender. And which, despite the rather non-judgmental way in which nobody mentioned that ti was two women, sent an extremely negative message throughout the entire episode that THESE TWO WOMEN can't be together because it was "reassociation." Hey, that sure sends a positive message.

Or "The Host," in which a character kind of sort of says she wouldn't mind if a body-switching parasite were in a female body, though the entire series (and this episode in particular) she's demonstrated nothing but heaving-bosomy heterosexuality. In fact the character appears initially to reject the female recipient of the symbiont. And the director says in interviews that he never intended ANY homosexual overtones to the kind of sort of scene. Gates McFadden ahs said she wanted to film something more explicit (a hug between the women) and that it was unfilmed.

Let's play subsitution here:

Say that TNG hires no African-American actors, and features African-American characters, except for two episodes (of 176). In one, all the dark-skinned parts are played by white actors in blackface, and are persecuting the white actors. In the other, a white character kind of sort of says she wouldn't mind if a body-switching parasite were in a dark-skinned body.

Say that DS9 hires no African-American actors, and features African-American characters, except for one episode (of 176). In that episode, a white character tries to reassociate with an African-American character, but all the other white characters tell them they can't do it because they have rules in their society that have nothing to do with skin color. It just happens that the one African-American that appears is against the rules.

Do you REALLY think that America would sit still for that?

 

[neogothboy74]

^ Again, what he said. I was writing a response to that part but I got so angry I had to take a break.

Thankfully, Trek Lit has moved beyond the series in this regard and has populated the books with the more realistic diversity of the human condition that exists here on Earth. I'm actually (slowly) working on a webpage devoted to LGBT inclusive Trek. And I thank all the Trek authors, writers, and any others who fought for such change both on the shows (those little references did matter) and in the books / comics / games. Because this gay Trek fan has appreciated all of it.

Besides the T’Prynn/ Anna Sandesjo tryst on Vanguard I’m really having a hard time picking out any other ‘gay regulars’ in TrekLit.

I didn't say anything about there being or needing a 'gay regular' on Trek or in Trek Lit, but there are LGBT characters and references in many Trek books; far more (and far more realistically) than in the shows themselves. Most of these characters are one offs or background characters and that would have been more than enough for me on the live action front. It's not the lack of main LGBT characters that bothers me, but the almost complete lack of positive role models of any kind. It's just not cool.

Some examples from the books include: Trip's brother Albert Tucker was married to a man named Miguel ("The Good That Men Do"), Stefcia & Jameela Janosz ("The Buried Age"), Harry's roomie and 2 crewmembers I can't remember ("Pathways" by Jeri Taylor) multiple characters in the alternate Mirror Universe "Dark Passions" duology, Moll Enor & Jayme Miranda ("The Best and the Brightest"), Sean Hawk ("First Contact", "Section 31: Rogue"), Ranul Keru ("Section 31: Rogue", "Immortal Coil", "Trill: Unjoined", "Tales From the Captain's Table: Improvisations on the Opal Sea", all the Titan and Destiny books), Slon & Sotok ("New Frontier #10: Renaissance") Kelly Eideman ("Avatar, Book One") Mirror McHenry ("New Frontier: Turnaround"), Kenneth Norellis (the Titan series) Bart Faulwell & Anthony Mark (S.C.E.) Krissten Richter & Etana Kol (DS9 Relaunch + Marvel Comics), Ruth Grabowski & her Jewish girlfriend ("Greater Than the Sum"). There are also references to LGBT relationships & instances in which characters are not presumed to be hetero in many of Peter David's books - two examples of this include NF #12: Being Human (page 218), NF #13: Gods Above (pages 84-85). In the first Voyager Relaunch book, "Homecoming" by Christie Golden, Harry Kim while wondering if Libby has perhaps moved on while he was away does not restrict this speculation to only male partners (page 48). Lesbianism is discussed in "Destiny Book II: Mere Mortals" (pags 114-115). There are other characters and references that I'm not remembering at the moment I'm sure (but I'm guessing that you can see my point that the books display far more diversity than the tv shows have) - anyone interested in helping me keep track of all of them, feel free to e-mail me. People have mentioned things to me in passing that I've never gotten around to reading. Perhaps I should open a thread - get some help with this.

I didn't mean to derail this thread from RDM's Mems. My apologies.

 

[BillJ]

Well there were TNG's "The Outcast" and DS9's "Rejoined". EDIT: Plus there was TNG's "The Host"

Ah yes...

The Outcast, in which all the gender-neutral roles were played by obvious women, DESPITE the actor's stated preference and willingness to have some played by men to really challenge assumptions. The episode in which the gender-neutrals ganged up on the heterosexual romance and persecuted the heterosexuals. Wow, that sure sends a positive message. And the director says in interviews that he never intended ANY homosexual overtones to the kind of sort of scene.

Rejoined, in which the character was originally to have been played by a man, but which the producers changed to a woman. But which featured characters that changed genders, and the only reason they were two women together was chance, not innate attraction to same gender. And which, despite the rather non-judgmental way in which nobody mentioned that ti was two women, sent an extremely negative message throughout the entire episode that THESE TWO WOMEN can't be together because it was "reassociation." Hey, that sure sends a positive message.

Or "The Host," in which a character kind of sort of says she wouldn't mind if a body-switching parasite were in a female body, though the entire series (and this episode in particular) she's demonstrated nothing but heaving-bosomy heterosexuality.

Let's play subsitution here:

Say that TNG hires no African-American actors, and features African-American characters, except for two episodes (of 176). In one, all the dark-skinned parts are played by white actors in blackface, and are persecuting the white actors. In the other, a white character kind of sort of says she wouldn't mind if a body-switching parasite were in a dark-skinned body.

Say that DS9 hires no African-American actors, and features African-American characters, except for one episode (of 176). In that episode, a white character tries to reassociate with an African-American character, but all the other white characters tell them they can't do it because they have rules in their society that have nothing to do with skin color. It just happens that the one African-American that appears is against the rules.

Do you REALLY think that America would sit still for that?

Let's be realistic here... lots of groups have been left out of Star Trek. I don't know what else to say. There are no gay characters but the show has dabbled with homo-sexuality. I'm not exactly sure what you want. It is a show built for a mainstream audience. The only way you would get a homo-sexual character in would be as a token. Then people would be here bitching that it was Rick Berman's fault. Because there is no way in hell you would get the suits to approve a relationship between Trip and Malcolm that was like the Trip/T'Pol relationship.

 

[BillJ]

^ Again, what he said. I was writing a response to that part but I got so angry I had to take a break.

Thankfully, Trek Lit has moved beyond the series in this regard and has populated the books with the more realistic diversity of the human condition that exists here on Earth. I'm actually (slowly) working on a webpage devoted to LGBT inclusive Trek. And I thank all the Trek authors, writers, and any others who fought for such change both on the shows (those little references did matter) and in the books / comics / games. Because this gay Trek fan has appreciated all of it.

Besides the T’Prynn/ Anna Sandesjo tryst on Vanguard I’m really having a hard time picking out any other ‘gay regulars’ in TrekLit.

I didn't say anything about there being or needing a 'gay regular' on Trek or in Trek Lit, but there are LGBT characters and references in many Trek books; far more (and far more realistically) than in the shows themselves. Most of these characters are one offs or background characters and that would have been more than enough for me on the live action front.

Off hand, Trip's brother Albert Tucker was married to a man named Miguel ("The Good That Men Do"), Stefcia & Jameela Janosz ("The Buried Age"), Harry's roomie and 2 crewmembers I can't remember ("Pathways" by Jeri Taylor) multiple characters in the alternate Mirror Universe "Dark Passions" duology, Moll Enor & Jayme Miranda ("The Best and the Brightest"), Sean Hawk ("First Contact", "Section 31: Rogue"), Ranul Keru ("Section 31: Rogue", "Immortal Coil", "Trill: Unjoined", "Tales From the Captain's Table: Improvisations on the Opal Sea", all the Titan and Destiny books), Slon & Sotok ("New Frontier #10: Renaissance") Kelly Eideman ("Avatar, Book One") Mirror McHenry ("New Frontier: Turnaround"), Kenneth Norellis (the Titan series) Bart Faulwell & Anthony Mark (S.C.E.) Krissten Richter & Etana Kol (DS9 Relaunch + Marvel Comics), Ruth Grabowski & her Jewish girlfriend ("Greater Than the Sum"). There are also references to LGBT relationships & instances in which characters are not presumed to be hetero in many of Peter David's books - two examples of this include NF #12: Being Human (page 218), NF #13: Gods Above (pages 84-85). In the first Voyager Relaunch book, "Homecoming" by Christie Golden, Harry Kim while wondering if Libby has perhaps moved on while he was away does not restrict this speculation to only male partners (page 48). Lesbianism is discussed in "Destiny Book II: Mere Mortals" (pags 114-115). There are other characters and references that I'm not remembering at the moment I'm sure (but I'm guessing that you can see my point) - anyone interested in helping me keep track of all of them, feel free to e-mail me. People have mentioned things to me in passing that I've never gotten around to reading. Perhaps I should open a thread - get some help with this.

I didn't mean to derail this thread from RDM's Mems. My apologies.

So you're happy with the tokens?

 

[TheAlmanac]

I'm actually (slowly) working on a webpage devoted to LGBT inclusive Trek. And I thank all the Trek authors, writers, and any others who fought for such change both on the shows (those little references did matter) and in the books / comics / games. Because this gay Trek fan has appreciated all of it.

That's very cool. I hope that when you have that page up (which will no doubt include a bunch of TrekLit sources), you'll start a thread here with a link to it...

I share your frustration at how far behind the (filmed) franchise has fallen in this regard, when it didn't have to be that way at all.

 

[Andy Mangels]

I would need to see some proof. Exactly because of the examples I listed above.

Here's the URL for an illuminative history of the attempts to bring Gays into Star Trek up to 1991 (the original link is down, but the archvie has it):
http://web.archive.org/web/20071219034904/http://www.gayleague.com/forums/display.php?id=76

There's another good link or two at the bottom of the piece.

Note that
In an January 2000 interview for fandom.com, ex-Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine executive producer/story editor/writer Ronald Moore responded to the question of why there are no gay characters in Star Trek: "This is one of those uncomfortable questions I hated getting when I was working on the show, because there is no good answer for it. There is no answer for it other than people in charge don't want gay characters in Star Trek, period. This stuff about, How would you know? Maybe there are lots of people walking through those corridors that are actually gay. What would you have us do? Show them holding hands? That would be ridiculous. Our regulars don't hold hands, which its own kind of a sad commentary on the state of human relations, that they can't even hold hands. Just think about what it would say to have a gay Starfleet captain. It would mean something in Star Trek. It would mean something in science fiction. It would mean something in television. Why isn't Star Trek leading the way anymore, in the social, political front? Gene always said, whether this is true or not, that he saw Star Trek as a way to explore social issues, without the networks catching on. Because it was all couched in space aliens, and ray guns, and space opera type stuff, it gave him a chance to explore social issues, without the networks catching on."


Now "people in charge" could be any number of people, couldn't it. He doesn't specifically say Rick Berman.


But you know what? I've talked with a lot of people on the shows. Writers, directors, actors, interns, licensing people, licensees... Every single one of them who would talk about the situation laid it on Berman (although a few have said that Braga wasn't much better).



There is a lot more that I can't talk about publicly, including how things were handled when we brought gay characters into Marvel Comics TREK, and when we did ROGUE for Pocket. Let's just say that I have zero reason to doubt what everybody told me.


More specific proof?


In a 1995 interview for The Advocate with Patrick Stewart, the interviewer remarked that in "The Outcast," the characters all looked like lesbians. Stewart responded "Now, that would really upset the producers! But you're right, it was singularly absent from the show. Given what growth and advancement have been made in the past 20years - even in the most rigid male bastions like the military—one would have thought that Star Trekwould be the ideal environment for projecting oneself 400 years forward and saying, "All right, this has happened in 20 years; what might we have achieved in 400 years?""
[Note: so the producers would be upset over characters looking like lesbians?]

In an August 2001 story, TV Guide writer Michael Logan confronted Rick Berman with the rumor that Enterprisewould feature a gay character (specifically Reed). Berman said "That's totally untrue. Well I shouldn't say totally untrue. It has not been discussed. One of these characters may turn out to be gay. We've just decided not to make an issue of it for the time being."
[Note: so being gay is "an issue" and "the time being" is "NEVER, from 1989-2005 in 622 episodes""?]

In August 2002, Kate Mulgrew gave an interview in which she said, "one would think that Hollywood would be more open-minded at this point, since essentially the whole town is run by the gay community. It makes very little sense if you think about it. No, Star Trek is very strangely by the book in this regard. Rick Berman, who is a very sagacious man, has been very firm about certain things. I've approached him many, many times over the years about getting a gay character on the show--one whom we could really love, not just a guest star. Y'know, we had blacks, Asians, we even had a handicapped character--and so I thought, this is now beginning to look a bit absurd. And he said, "In due time." And so, I'm suspecting that on Enterprise they will do something to this effect. I couldn't get it done on mine. And I am sorry for that."
www.webpan.com/dsinclair/Out+in+America-mulgrew+interview.htm
[Note: again, "due time" means "NEVER, from 1989-2005 in 622 episodes""?]

In December 2002, USA Today quoted Rick Berman justifying the continued absence of gay characters. Refering to even the possibility of identifiable gay background characters shown, such as a couple holding hands, Berman said:"That was really the wishful thinking of some people who were constantly at us. But we don't see heterosexual couples holding hands on the show, so it would be somewhat dishonest of us to see two gay men or lesbians holding hands."
http://www.webpan.com/dsinclair/usatoday2002-12-06.html
[Note: No, we just see straight people having sex or kissing in almost every episode.]

In an April 2003 interview with Trekweb, Berman stated,
"Stigma' was supposed to be our gay episode, but we sort of copped out."
[Note: so an episode about Vulcan AIDs was Berman's idea of "gay"?]

That's the stuff I can find in 30 minutes of looking online, most of which doesn't take into account countless post-series interviews with actors and production personnel that have been more *ahem* forthright in their criticisms.

 

[Sci]

Let's be realistic here... lots of groups have been left out of Star Trek.

Which is a shame, because Star Trek really ought to be much more inclusive than it has been. I mean, bloody hell, the guy who played Sulu for how many years was gay -- doesn't that tell us that maybe, even if Trek can't always find a way to include people of foreign cultures or groups, it should at least make the effort to include LGBT individuals, who do, after all, make up an important part of American culture -- and of the Star Trek production family!?

I don't know what else to say.

"I agree with you completely -- it is an absolute shame that LGBT individuals were never represented overtly and positively on Star Trek, and future Trek productions should feature LGBT characters that are treated no differently than heterosexual characters."

There are no gay characters but the show has dabbled with homo-sexuality.

1. The word is "homosexuality," not "homo-sexuality."

2. "Homosexuality" is a term that doesn't encompass the full spectrum of non-heterosexual behavior and orientations. There have been no transgendered or transsexual human characters, for instance, nor any bisexuals. That's why the term "LGBT" -- "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual/Transgendered" -- is often preferred.

3. Would you find it acceptable if Star Trek had no black characters but dabbled in black guest stars in three episodes out of 700?

I'm not exactly sure what you want.

LGBTs in Star Trek. A depiction of a future of tolerance for LGBT individuals, same as we've already had with individuals of African, Asian, European, and Arab descent (Sisko, Kim, O'Brien, Bashir).

It is a show built for a mainstream audience.

So's Will and Grace.

By your logic, TOS shouldn't have featured any Asians or blacks in its cast -- because, after all, it was a show for a mainstream audience at the time.

The only way you would get a homo-sexual character in would be as a token.

No, you can do a real character with a real life and real flaws, just like you do with straight characters, just like you do with ethnic minorities.

Then people would be here bitching that it was Rick Berman's fault. Because there is no way in hell you would get the suits to approve a relationship between Trip and Malcolm that was like the Trip/T'Pol relationship.

Well, if they had done a Trip/Malcolm thing, I for one would have hoped it would have been a bit less sexually exploitive and more maturely-written than the Trip/T'Pol relationship was (much as I liked that one, too).

Re: Berman as bigot.

To be fair, the sense that I get from all of that is not so much that Berman is a bigot as that he's... I don't know if there's a word that's been developed for it, but, if there's a distinction between racism and ethnocentricity, I'd say that it's the same with Berman. "Heterocentricity?"

Which is not a good thing, either, mind you. I'm not saying that the fact that he resisted efforts to bring in LGBT characters is something that's acceptable or excusable or that isn't worthy of condemnation. I just think that there are degrees of heterosexism, and it's important to keep mind that there is a moral difference between someone who hates gays, thinks they're immoral and inferior, and actively wishes to oppress them, and someone who is afraid of dealing with the issue because it's potentially controversial and just wishes the issue would go away -- which is the sense I get from Berman. Neither attitude is in any way acceptable or commendable -- but Berman shouldn't be assumed to be a Fred Phelps kinda fellow, either.

 

[neogothboy74]

So you're happy with the tokens?

This might surprise you, but I've been gay my whole life. I have tons of LGBT friends and family members, and a lot of straight supportive friends and family as well. I don't need a main character to justify myself. I certainly wouldn't turn one down! But the annoying thing about live action Trek for me isn't the lack of a major plot thread about LGBT characters so much as the lack of representation over all. If we were represented as we have been by these 'token' characters in the novels, than I would be quite satisfied, just as I was satisfied by the representations of LGBT characters on BSG. I'm sure there would be many people that would obeject to this inclusion, and there would be many people that objected to there not being a main character that represented us - but I'm not one of those people. I mean, it would be nice, but that's not what I'm interested in. I'm not pushing for a 'Queer as Trek'. I'm talking about a very basic representation of the truth, and that lack of it in Trek is a major flaw in the franchise, and a dangerous one if you ask me.

I'm actually (slowly) working on a webpage devoted to LGBT inclusive Trek. And I thank all the Trek authors, writers, and any others who fought for such change both on the shows (those little references did matter) and in the books / comics / games. Because this gay Trek fan has appreciated all of it.

That's very cool. I hope that when you have that page up (which will no doubt include a bunch of TrekLit sources), you'll start a thread here with a link to it...

I share your frustration at how far behind the (filmed) franchise has fallen in this regard, when it didn't have to be that way at all.

Thanks. I'll certainly give out the link to the page when it's finished; that was kind of the point of doing it in the first place. It's something I only started setting up about a week ago, really, though I've been making notes about it on a wordpad for about a year. Several years ago on a Yahoo Trek Forum, this guy said some truly horrible anti-gay things and I confronted him loudly and openly - and several Trek authors including Andy Mangels, David R. George III, KRAD & Terri Osbourne(?) all chimed in, and some even e-mailed me to thank me for speaking up - which was really great. There were a few more outbreaks like that, and I started thinking it would be a good idea to have a site that listed all the LGBT inclusive Trek for LGBT fans, and also to point out that Trek really isn't a place for bigots - and have all the reasoning and info in one place. I'm slowly working on it, but I'm not currently reading as much Trek as I was in recent years (because I simply have a lot that I want to read). And I don't have time to reread the stuff that I've already read...so it's going to take me a long time. But it's something I keep working on. I'm very passionate about it. Perhaps if I get some help it will speed things along.

 

[Andrew Harris]

I put two gay characters in Star Trek: The Last Generation--one of whom had been a series regular--and the relationship at one point becomes central to the story, but during the approvals process I never heard a single objection about it from CBS/Paramount, for what that's worth.

I think part of the question here is that being gay is regarded as something that makes you part of a "group" rather than part of something that makes you an individual. In other words, the way that Star Trek treats aliens, rather than the way it treats characters.

 

[neogothboy74]

I put two gay characters in Star Trek: The Last Generation--one of whom had been a series regular--and the relationship at one point becomes central to the story, but during the approvals process I never heard a single objection about it from CBS/Paramount, for what that's worth.

I think part of the question here is that being gay is regarded as something that makes you part of a "group" rather than part of something that makes you an individual. In other words, the way that Star Trek treats aliens, rather than the way it treats characters.

THANK YOU for the inclusion, and your words. I'll be sure to check out 'The Last Generation' ASAP. I just preordered the July 2009 Graphic Novel from Amazon.

 

[Andy Mangels]

I put two gay characters in Star Trek: The Last Generation--one of whom had been a series regular--and the relationship at one point becomes central to the story, but during the approvals process I never heard a single objection about it from CBS/Paramount, for what that's worth.

I think part of the question here is that being gay is regarded as something that makes you part of a "group" rather than part of something that makes you an individual. In other words, the way that Star Trek treats aliens, rather than the way it treats characters.

Thanks for noting that Andrew - I'm wayyyy behind on my reading, but I just spotted that in issue #3. BTW, one of those characters I believe Mike and I outed as having a bisexual past in DS9 Cathedral... It's been a while since we wrote it, but I think that was there.

And an interesting observation on groups vs. individuals, especially re: aliens. Had not thought of that element in quite that manner.

 

[BillJ]

Andy: Thanks for the links. But I'm not sure they help you're case. At worst it shows Star trek being marketed to two different types of crowds. Mainstream and those who buy the merchandise...

Rejoined - Reaction to the episode was strong: some stations refused to air the episode, a Southern affiliate edited the kissing scene out. Mail and phone calls ran very negative, though some positive feedback emerged.

This would seem to back-up my point about Paramount not wanting to sacrifice their mainstream audience.

Roddenberry’s Assistant - Ernie Over, an openly gay man who was Roddenberry's personal assistant at Paramount, and who was quoted in The Advocate, was dismissed shortly after Roddenberry's death. Rick Berman takes control of the Star Trek franchise.

I'm sure someone will come beating me with a stick over this one. But wasn't Richard Arnold fired as well?

Ron Moore

I just don't trust him. Sorry. If there was a problem, he didn't seem to mind while collecting a paycheck. I consider him a hostile witness at best. Where were all the homo-sexuals on Battlestar Galactica?

A Stitch in Time - This novel by actor Andrew J. Robinson recounts the past of his character, ex-Obsidian Order assassin turned Deep Space Nine tailor, Elim Garak. In several scenes, Garak is intimated to be bisexual. The actor would later admit in an Amazon.com interview that he always played Garak as if he were bisexual.

This and other books listed were being published while Rick Berman was in charge of the franchise. So I think it still comes back to the whole mainstream audience. Star Trek was a cash-cow and Paramount became very conservative with the film side of it. Though I don't think it was to the franchise's benefit.

So I still think it's a stretch to call Rick Berman a bigot.

Andy - I still think you're one hell of a writer even if I disagree with your viewpoint on this.

 

[BillJ]

1. The word is "homosexuality," not "homo-sexuality."

Proud of yourself for catching that one...

By your logic, TOS shouldn't have featured any Asians or blacks in its cast -- because, after all, it was a show for a mainstream audience at the time.

That's utter bullshit and you know it. Star Trek wasn't a billion dollar franchise at that point.

 

[Steve Roby]

Andy: Thanks for the links. But I'm not sure they help you're case. At worst it shows Star trek being marketed to two different types of crowds. Mainstream and those who buy the merchandise...

The mainstream audience that made Soap, a soap opera parody sitcom in the 1970s, a huge hit? With Billy Crystal, the guy who played a gay character, becoming the show's big breakout star? The mainstream audience that made Will & Grace one of the most popular sitcoms on TV for several years? That mainstream audience is worried about gay characters?

Or do you mean the mainstream SF-watching audience? Who manage to watch LGBT characters in Doctor Who, Buffy, Torchwood, Galactica....

1. The word is "homosexuality," not "homo-sexuality."

Proud of yourself for catching that one...

What's that supposed to mean?

By your logic, TOS shouldn't have featured any Asians or blacks in its cast -- because, after all, it was a show for a mainstream audience at the time.

That's utter bullshit and you know it. Star Trek wasn't a billion dollar franchise at that point.

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Trek Survivor]

Oh Yay. The bandwagon-jumping Berman bashers are out again in full force. "He banned gays!!!" etc. Until some one shows me proof, I call BS.

I've posted elsewhere about how surprised I was when first coming on here that Berman gets such backlash. I'm not a "Berman fawner" or whatever I expect I'll be accused of, but good grief, the guy did some amazing things for Star Trek. In fact, he pretty much WAS Trek throughout the 1990s (and yes, appointing people like Ira Behr was his decision) - for both good and bad.

I kinda lost touch with the franchise after DS9 ended so can't really comment on the end of Voyager or Enterprise. But Berman was pretty much in control of Trek from season 2 of TNG onward, co-created DS9 and did lots of excellent things. I'm sure he made some bad decisions too, but the vitroil against him is remarkable.

I would look forward to a book from his perspective.