Benjamin Maxwell

[Ian Keldon]

I would also note for the record that the terrrorism by Cardassian "colonists" in the DMZ was sanctioned by the Central Command.

The "treaty" with the Cardassians that the Federation gave up so much to protect wasn't worth the KB of iso-linear space it was stored in.

 

[Use of Time]

Hundreds of probable military personnel who were setting up a base to restart the war with the Federation. Picard simply was allowing a war hero to end his career with dignity.

That shouldn't matter. At that time those were not his lives to take. Add on the fact that he went rogue with a Federation starship in which he was responsible for countless lives. He almost forced the Federation into a war that they surely didn't need at the time seeing as how Wolf 359 was still pretty recent. We have no idea if the Federation would have naturally ended up at war with Cardassia if the Dominion hadn't forced the issue.

I don't recall the Dominion forcefully taking over Cardassia. They joined willingly. So they forced their own hand there.

Cardassia was right on the road to another war with the Federation until the Klingons beat them to the punch. The ds9 season 4/5 Cardassia was pretty much potrayed as being a fallen power, that was only being saved from total conquest by Federation intervention.

As for Maxwell, as I said I doubt he was in prison for long. The Federation penal system was laughable. Kassidy was gone less than a year for smuggling for the Maquis, and Garak only got six months for attempted genocide! In Voyager's Non Sequitor, Paris was released too which implies he would've been in prison only for a year or so.

No, I mean we don't know if Cardassia would have been willing to go to war without the Dominion on their side. There had been no declaration of war so those lives were not for Maxwell to take. Cardassia had every right to build up their forces. Maxwell's actions make him a murderer. In fact, they make him a mass murderer.

As for his prison sentence, who knows. I highly doubt that he would ever see a Starfleet uniform again. The guy had some mental problems to say the least.

 

[BillJ]

That shouldn't matter. At that time those were not his lives to take. Add on the fact that he went rogue with a Federation starship in which he was responsible for countless lives. He almost forced the Federation into a war that they surely didn't need at the time seeing as how Wolf 359 was still pretty recent. We have no idea if the Federation would have naturally ended up at war with Cardassia if the Dominion hadn't forced the issue.

I don't recall the Dominion forcefully taking over Cardassia. They joined willingly. So they forced their own hand there.

Cardassia was right on the road to another war with the Federation until the Klingons beat them to the punch. The ds9 season 4/5 Cardassia was pretty much potrayed as being a fallen power, that was only being saved from total conquest by Federation intervention.

As for Maxwell, as I said I doubt he was in prison for long. The Federation penal system was laughable. Kassidy was gone less than a year for smuggling for the Maquis, and Garak only got six months for attempted genocide! In Voyager's Non Sequitor, Paris was released too which implies he would've been in prison only for a year or so.

No, I mean we don't know if Cardassia would have been willing to go to war without the Dominion on their side. There had been no declaration of war so those lives were not for Maxwell to take. Cardassia had every right to build up their forces. Maxwell's actions make him a murderer. In fact, they make him a mass murderer.

As for his prison sentence, who knows. I highly doubt that he would ever see a Starfleet uniform again. The guy had some mental problems to say the least.

Did Maxwell fall off the sanity wagon? Yes. Mass murderer? I'm not so sure. If the treaty stipulated they cold rebuild their forces and arm those sectors, they wouldn't have been doing it by stealth means.

Then we have the issue of them amassing for war in "Chain of Command" which I think vindicates Maxwell to a certain degree.

But if Picard had taken the same actions as Maxwell, I'm sure we'd have many folks doing triple somersaults trying to explain away his actions.

 

[R. Star]

That shouldn't matter. At that time those were not his lives to take. Add on the fact that he went rogue with a Federation starship in which he was responsible for countless lives. He almost forced the Federation into a war that they surely didn't need at the time seeing as how Wolf 359 was still pretty recent. We have no idea if the Federation would have naturally ended up at war with Cardassia if the Dominion hadn't forced the issue.

I don't recall the Dominion forcefully taking over Cardassia. They joined willingly. So they forced their own hand there.

Cardassia was right on the road to another war with the Federation until the Klingons beat them to the punch. The ds9 season 4/5 Cardassia was pretty much potrayed as being a fallen power, that was only being saved from total conquest by Federation intervention.

As for Maxwell, as I said I doubt he was in prison for long. The Federation penal system was laughable. Kassidy was gone less than a year for smuggling for the Maquis, and Garak only got six months for attempted genocide! In Voyager's Non Sequitor, Paris was released too which implies he would've been in prison only for a year or so.

No, I mean we don't know if Cardassia would have been willing to go to war without the Dominion on their side. There had been no declaration of war so those lives were not for Maxwell to take. Cardassia had every right to build up their forces. Maxwell's actions make him a murderer. In fact, they make him a mass murderer.

As for his prison sentence, who knows. I highly doubt that he would ever see a Starfleet uniform again. The guy had some mental problems to say the least.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Cardassia was re-arming for war with the Federation. That was established in the Wounded. They attacked and destroyed a Federation colony and tried to blame it on the Bajorians in Ensign Ro. While the finalized peace treaty was being negotiated, the Cardassians attempted to sieze Minos Korva. The attack on DS9 in Emissary and the Cardassians attacking the Enterprise in the Chase were both -after- the treaty was signed.

They weren't friendly with the Federation and were very ready to pursue hostilities whenever it was advantageous. I can guarantee that if during season 3 of DS9 a Borg Cube wiped out half of Starfleet, they'd attack in a heartbeat.

The only reason it didn't happen was because the Klingons attacked them first.

Back to Maxwell, BillJ makes a good point. Everyone would be justifying his actions if it was Picard, Sisko or Janeway. Heck Sisko gassed an entire Maquis colony with no consequences for example.

 

[Use of Time]

I don't recall the Dominion forcefully taking over Cardassia. They joined willingly. So they forced their own hand there.

Cardassia was right on the road to another war with the Federation until the Klingons beat them to the punch. The ds9 season 4/5 Cardassia was pretty much potrayed as being a fallen power, that was only being saved from total conquest by Federation intervention.

As for Maxwell, as I said I doubt he was in prison for long. The Federation penal system was laughable. Kassidy was gone less than a year for smuggling for the Maquis, and Garak only got six months for attempted genocide! In Voyager's Non Sequitor, Paris was released too which implies he would've been in prison only for a year or so.

No, I mean we don't know if Cardassia would have been willing to go to war without the Dominion on their side. There had been no declaration of war so those lives were not for Maxwell to take. Cardassia had every right to build up their forces. Maxwell's actions make him a murderer. In fact, they make him a mass murderer.

As for his prison sentence, who knows. I highly doubt that he would ever see a Starfleet uniform again. The guy had some mental problems to say the least.

Did Maxwell fall off the sanity wagon? Yes. Mass murderer? I'm not so sure. If the treaty stipulated they cold rebuild their forces and arm those sectors, they wouldn't have been doing it by stealth means.

Then we have the issue of them amassing for war in "Chain of Command" which I think vindicates Maxwell to a certain degree.

But if Picard had taken the same actions as Maxwell, I'm sure we'd have many folks doing triple somersaults trying to explain away his actions.

Wait, you are asking me why they would rebuild stealthily? Does the term operational security mean anything to you? Why would they want the Federation to know locations of their military, what their strenghts are, what their capabilities are. Of course they do it stealthily. Who wouldn't?

Massing for war doesn't vindicate Maxwell in the least. In fact the Federation sent Picard and Crusher on a wild goose chase and put a warhawk in charge of negotiations. If anything, they pushed the envelope.

 

[BillJ]

We will have to agree to disagree.

But if it hadn't been for Maxwell, the Federation would've ended up knee deep in another war, trying to take those sectors back.

 

[R. Star]

We will have to agree to disagree.

But if it hadn't been for Maxwell, the Federation would've ended up knee deep in another war, trying to take those sectors back.

Given how easily the Klingons curbstomped the Cardassians, I can only imagine the reason the previous Federation/Cardassian war lasted so long is because the Federation didn't fully mobilize and put their full effort into it.

If they did so, they'd likely beat the Cardassians just as rapidly.

 

[Use of Time]

We will have to agree to disagree.

But if it hadn't been for Maxwell, the Federation would've ended up knee deep in another war, trying to take those sectors back.

Or maybe the Cardassians would be fending off the Klingons who decided they wanted to invade a few years later. It's possible the Cardassians just wanted to build up their military so they could have equal footing with the Romulans, Klingons, Federation. It was by no means a forgone conclusion they would be at with the Federation.

 

[BillJ]

I've mentioned this in other threads regarding this episode:

I'm sure privately that there are those at Starfleet Command who applauded Maxwell's actions as it gave them reason to again put the Cardassians under close scrutiny.

 

[Timo]

At that time those were not his lives to take. Add on the fact that he went rogue with a Federation starship in which he was responsible for countless lives.

None of this differs from what Kirk did in ST3:TSfS. He stole a starship and murdered a bunch of Klingons. While the Klingons apparently declared war over it (or at least said "there shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives"), nobody paid much attention, just like nobody really noticed when the Cardassians decided to be at war with the Federation at the start of "The Wounded". And while Kirk's superiors didn't exactly like him going rogue, a year later Kirk was a celebrity and a few years on a leading envoy to the Klingons.

Starfleet doesn't much care if its field commanders kill people. Space is dangerous enough, with grave dangers of misunderstanding either way when encounters with the unknown take place. Sometimes skippers err on the side of caution and get themselves and UFP citizens killed. Sometimes they err the other way and get alien scum killed. Obviously, Starfleet would vastly prefer the latter.

This reflects oddly on the sentiment that starship crews would be expendable in upholding the Prime Directive, with altruist suicide preferable to selfish survival, as suggested in "Omega Glory". But said TOS episode is basically the only place where anybody from Starfleet ponders on the virtues of suicide as a military maneuver. Kirk flat out refused to consider it even in cases where he could take down key UFP enemies with him. Picard spoke of the importance of upholding Starfleet principles but never when self-survival was at stake. Both were soldiers by profession, and both swatted starships occupied by hundreds of sentients out of existence whenever necessary for UFP safety - without formal declaration of war or anything like that ("Day of the Dove", "Best of Both Worlds" etc).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Use of Time]

At that time those were not his lives to take. Add on the fact that he went rogue with a Federation starship in which he was responsible for countless lives.

None of this differs from what Kirk did in ST3:TSfS. He stole a starship and murdered a bunch of Klingons. While the Klingons apparently declared war over it (or at least said "there shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives"), nobody paid much attention, just like nobody really noticed when the Cardassians decided to be at war with the Federation at the start of "The Wounded". And while Kirk's superiors didn't exactly like him going rogue, a year later Kirk was a celebrity and a few years on a leading envoy to the Klingons.

Starfleet doesn't much care if its field commanders kill people. Space is dangerous enough, with grave dangers of misunderstanding either way when encounters with the unknown take place. Sometimes skippers err on the side of caution and get themselves and UFP citizens killed. Sometimes they err the other way and get alien scum killed. Obviously, Starfleet would vastly prefer the latter.

This reflects oddly on the sentiment that starship crews would be expendable in upholding the Prime Directive, with altruist suicide preferable to selfish survival, as suggested in "Omega Glory". But said TOS episode is basically the only place where anybody from Starfleet ponders on the virtues of suicide as a military maneuver. Kirk flat out refused to consider it even in cases where he could take down key UFP enemies with him. Picard spoke of the importance of upholding Starfleet principles but never when self-survival was at stake. Both were soldiers by profession, and both swatted starships occupied by hundreds of sentients out of existence whenever necessary for UFP safety - without formal declaration of war or anything like that ("Day of the Dove", "Best of Both Worlds" etc).

Timo Saloniemi

It is no where near the same situation. Those poor Klingons got to the planet first and guess what they did. They blew the USS Grissom out of the sky and knifed his son to death. He only killed them as a last resort.

I'll give another to your second paragraph too. Starfleet doesn't care that it's commanders kill people or get people killed? Since when.

I'll be honest Timo...you can be one of the best posters and then sometimes I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from. This third paragraph is tough to even wade through and pick out the point you are trying to make. Are you saying that the Federation should choose suicide over self defense? I'm honestly asking because I don't understand.

CAPT Maxwell went on an indiscriminate hunting spree on a ship carrying the Federation banner, disobeyed orders, endangered the lives of his crew, and threatened a war that he wasn't authorized to initiate. There was no self defense this was all on a hunch. The ends we see in the Dominion war do not justify his means in this case. Man, I figured this one would be a no brainer.

 

[NebulaClassGuy]

The truth of the matter is that all along, Captain Maxwell WAS right. Captain Picard knew it, and even called Gul Macet out on it at the end of the episode. Even O'Brien knew it, and he didn't have any of the facts at hand... he was just basing his faith in Maxwell on personal experience and loyalty to the man, along with his gut feelings about the Cardassians. But Maxwell was right... the Cardassians were indeed arming again. What the Federation lacked, was solid and irrefutable proof of that.

That lack of proof, coupled with the fact that the two powers were in a state of peace at the time, is what made Maxwell's actions wholly criminal. He was using that assumption as an excuse to justify his revenge murders. Picard knew that there was no good reason for Cardassian transport ships to be running with high-intensity fields that disrupt sensors, but he also knew that if he had boarded one of those ships without provocation, that he would be playing into the hands of the Cardassians.

In fact, I dare say that the Cardassians were launching a two-pronged attempt to lure the UFP back into a conflict with them, and IMO, I dare wager that it was actually an agent of the Obsidian Order that leaked to the UFP or Maxwell that the Cardassians were arming again, hoping that they could use Maxwell (or Picard, if Maxwell failed) as a pawn, to get him to take preemptive aggressive action against them, giving them an excuse for a military response.

 

[Use of Time]

The truth of the matter is that all along, Captain Maxwell WAS right. Captain Picard knew it, and even called Gul Macet out on it at the end of the episode. Even O'Brien knew it, and he didn't have any of the facts at hand... he was just basing his faith in Maxwell on personal experience and loyalty to the man, along with his gut feelings about the Cardassians. But Maxwell was right... the Cardassians were indeed arming again. What the Federation lacked, was solid and irrefutable proof of that.

That lack of proof, coupled with the fact that the two powers were in a state of peace at the time, is what made Maxwell's actions wholly criminal. He was using that assumption as an excuse to justify his revenge murders. Picard knew that there was no good reason for Cardassian transport ships to be running with high-intensity fields that disrupt sensors, but he also knew that if he had boarded one of those ships without provocation, that he would be playing into the hands of the Cardassians.

In fact, I dare say that the Cardassians were launching a two-pronged attempt to lure the UFP back into a conflict with them, and IMO, I dare wager that it was actually an agent of the Obsidian Order that leaked to the UFP or Maxwell that the Cardassians were arming again, hoping that they could use Maxwell (or Picard, if Maxwell failed) as a pawn, to get him to take preemptive aggressive action against them, giving them an excuse for a military response.

Yep, the fact that Maxwell was "right" was immaterial. Like Picard said, Maxwell "smelling it" doesn't cut the mustard as far as justification goes.

 

[Silvercrest]

Contrary to some dialogue in TOS, it doesn't seem that becoming a Starfleet starship CO is subject to particularly strict criteria after all. We have seen a real zoo of types there, so Ben Maxwell being Ben Maxwell should not disqualify him a priori. And we have seen our main heroes fail and fumble again and again, so Ben Maxwell having erred or briefly fallen from grace should not disqualify him, either.

I know this is more DS9, but -- I had a similar question after seeing "Change of Heart" again the other day. Sisko tells Worf that he made the wrong call and probably wouldn't be offered a command of his own in the future. My reaction is, "Really? After all the losses in the Dominion War, when they badly need to rebuild the fleet, they're going to permanently sideline a highly experienced command officer for one bad call?" Particularly after the number of indiscretions forgiven other characters in the past.

And especially since that only happened when Worf was put in an impossible position by his commander. Sisko should know better; he's done some "moonlighting" jobs (heh) that involved questionable decisions. Actually, Sisko is the one who should have been reprimanded, not Worf.

If there's any possibility that Maxwell is off the hook, then the same should be true for Worf.

 

[BillJ]

I don't think Maxwell should be back in the Captain's chair, but it doesn't change the fact that his actions did have positive implications for the Federation.

* He gave the Cardassians a bloody nose and essentially eliminated that sector as a possible springboard for attacking Federation territory.

* He also gave them a peek at the 'can of whoop ass' the Federations new top line vessels can dish out.

I'm not so sure his personal losses made him less rational throughout this incident. This wasn't a man just striking out at random targets, he was hitting military targets in a specific area. If he was going for simple revenge he'd have struck at every Cardassian target he could get at. Civilian or military.

As a side note, his executive officers career was probably over as well due to this incident.

 

[Ian Keldon]

^True about the XO. It was his duty to relive Maxwell when he first started.

 

[NebulaClassGuy]

^True about the XO. It was his duty to relive Maxwell when he first started.

Unless Captain Maxwell saw him as a possible mutiny threat, and eliminated that threat by confining him to quarters. For all we know, Maxwell could have fabricated false intel to his senior staff to justify his actions.

 

[Use of Time]

I don't think Maxwell should be back in the Captain's chair, but it doesn't change the fact that his actions did have positive implications for the Federation.

* He gave the Cardassians a bloody nose and essentially eliminated that sector as a possible springboard for attacking Federation territory.

* He also gave them a peek at the 'can of whoop ass' the Federations new top line vessels can dish out.

I'm not so sure his personal losses made him less rational throughout this incident. This wasn't a man just striking out at random targets, he was hitting military targets in a specific area. If he was going for simple revenge he'd have struck at every Cardassian target he could get at. Civilian or military.

As a side note, his executive officers career was probably over as well due to this incident.

Yeah, I agree with your starred points. He was definitely coming unglued though. They had to send O'Brien to "talk him down" so to speak and the guy had a moment of self realization where he knew he had screwed up big time.

I'm not so sure about his XO. Maxwell could have gotten around his mutiny a lot of ways. He could have told him that he was acting on orders from Starfleet that were "Captains Eyes" only. It all depends on if he was absolutely loyal to Maxwell and was going to back him no matter what or he could have been manipulated by Maxwell into thinking the attacks were legit. Then again he could just be a clueless hack and his career would be over.

Man these are the kinds of stories that should end up as short stories somewhere down the road. I would love to see the lead up to this episode on the Phoenix.

 

[E-DUB]

The fan series "Helena Chronicles" brings back Maxwell, essentially under the scenario described above in which the outbreak of the Dominion war created a need for qualified captains. And he is portrayed (by a different actor, of course) as a Sec 31 operative.

And captaining a beefed-up Phoenix to boot.

 

[R. Star]

The fan series "Helena Chronicles" brings back Maxwell, essentially under the scenario described above in which the outbreak of the Dominion war created a need for qualified captains. And he is portrayed (by a different actor, of course) as a Sec 31 operative.

And captaining a beefed-up Phoenix to boot.

Yeah, again I don't like the finger being pointed at Section 31 everytime someone in the Federation does anything questionable. I swear as much as it gets thrown around, you wonder if the Section's primary purpose is a scapegoat to point to everytime something goes wrong in the Federation.