Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

[DonIago]

It was more pronounced than that...but I still think it qualifies as an homage, not a copy-paste ripoff or what-not. And frankly given what they were going for, I think it plays rather well.

Inverting the Spock/Kirk roles was fairly clever, as was calling back to what occurred in the film earlier.

 

[Cinema Geekly]

1) It wasn't a copy-paste given that the roles are reversed and it calls back to earlier developments in the film itself, and you're doing it a disservice to call it such. That said, if Khan wasn't involved then it would remind me more of NEM's take to emulate TWoK without "overtly" emulating TWoK...and that's not at all something I wish to see again.

Actually it is in fact a copy-paste. If you tried to turn in any sort of literary work that is clearly based on a preceding work from another author and have so many exact lines and dialogues, your professor would undoubtedly note that you had essentially copy-pasted from the older work and almost certainly give you a very poor grade as a result. This is not an opinion, its pure academic and literary standards. If you tried to emulate a song this closely with exact lines being taken, you would have a lawsuit against you which you would most certainly lose (there's mountains of evidence to support all these statements). If there weren't already a large number of cases where this has already happened in this exact manner, I might give your view some more thought but this is not the reality of the matter.

If that's the case then TWOK is just a Rip-Off of Moby Dick, Khan is Ahab, Kirk the White Whale, hell Khan even spouts Moby Dick dialog. Same for First Contact with the roles reversed! RIP OFFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Wormhole]

And if that was the change then, as I indicated earlier, I might have been left thinking, "Geeze, why not just make him Khan instead of BSing around the fact that that's basically who he is anyway?"

Except he isn't really. Orci himself admitted the character was developed as an entirely new character who was named Khan only because Lindelof wanted Khan to be in the movie even before it was written. And really, it could have been a better movie if they stuck with that new character instead.

 

[DonIago]

...and again, I'll say that if the only thing that changed was that he "wasn't Khan" but the rest of the movie remained essentially the same, I would have been left thinking, "If they're going to go this far, why not take it all the way and just say he's Khan?"

I -really- don't know what's so unclear about this.

"STID is about a genetically engineered supervillain from Earth's past who puts Kirk and Spock in a no-win scenario, and one of them must make a huge sacrifice to defeat him..." Really? Where have I heard that plot summary before?

 

[Pondslider]

...and again, I'll say that if the only thing that changed was that he "wasn't Khan" but the rest of the movie remained essentially the same, I would have been left thinking, "If they're going to go this far, why not take it all the way and just say he's Khan?"

I -really- don't know what's so unclear about this.

"STID is about a genetically engineered supervillain from Earth's past who puts Kirk and Spock in a no-win scenario, and one of them must make a huge sacrifice to defeat him..." Really? Where have I heard that plot summary before?

Khan being from earth's past had nothing to do with the story.

 

[Kruezerman]

"Khan and his people were condemned to death as war criminals."

Admiral Alexander Marcus.

And numerous other lines of dialogue from the movie.

 

[Pondslider]

Is that replying to me? I didn't say it wasn't brought up in the movie. I said nothing about Khan being from the past had anything to do with the actual story. Which is true. As others have said in this thread Harrison and his followers could have come from anywhere and the same basic story would have been the same.

 

[DonIago]

Look, if you want to speculate as to how different the film might be if Khan wasn't Khan, that's all well and good, but that's not what the original premise of this thread seemed to be. My understanding of the original premise was "don't have Khan be Khan, but otherwise minimal changes to the film", in which case I think my concern is valid.

Whether or not it's pertinent to the film that Khan is from Earth's past, it is brought up in the film. If we're going by the theory of minimal changes, then some generic character from Earth's past being in the film might make me wonder why they didn't use a classic villain. If we're -not- going by that theory, then you can't just say "he's not Khan", but rather you've opened up the question of what his background is instead and how it's significantly different from Khan's.

 

[shapeshifter]

And if that was the change then, as I indicated earlier, I might have been left thinking, "Geeze, why not just make him Khan instead of BSing around the fact that that's basically who he is anyway?"

Except he isn't really. Orci himself admitted the character was developed as an entirely new character who was named Khan only because Lindelof wanted Khan to be in the movie even before it was written. And really, it could have been a better movie if they stuck with that new character instead.

Perhaps the need for magic blood was a hugh sticking point for it NOT being Khan. Khan equaled greater simplicity for resurrecting you know who.

 

[Praetor]

I have to admit, the same thought struck me the first time I watched ID. It's more interesting if Benedict is simply another augment who Marcus chose to wake - perhaps because he thought he'd be more amiable to their cause than someone like Khan.

It's simply to rectify why he looks different - Section 31 wouldn't want anyone with a history book about the Eugenics Wars recognizing their secret weapon. That doesn't really bother me. It's just kind of... annoying they went back to the Khan well. But frankly, I think they felt they had to. Everything they wanted to do with reversing the Kirk/Spock roles and the throwbacks to TWOK would not have been as effective otherwise.

 

[Immolatus]

I certainly agree that John Harrison was more interesting than Khan, and even made a thread to that effect. And certainly since Orci has described the creative process for the character as creating and developing a new character who he then named Khan kind of makes it really pointless for the character to be Khan.

Just what is accomplished by this anyway? It's not marketing, they kept the Khan identity top secret thereby preventing them from taking advantage of any marketing opportunity this idea presents itself with.

One could argue dramatic effect. It would be completely out of left field for Harrison, sitting in the brig to announce he's Khan. And I suppose it would have been if the Abrams posse hadn't constantly been saying there's a twist to the Harrison character related to Trek canon like snickering school children telling the loser kid they know who has a crush on him but refusing to reveal who exactly.

I get the impression they are in love with plot twists and wanted to try their hand at a twist which will be forever remembered in movie history like Vader revealing he's Luke's father. Instead they completely ruined it just made themselves look like petulant children and by extension unprofessional filmmakers.

Or, they like "TWOK is our favourite movie and we really wanted to revisit it. So we remade its most memorable scene and named our villain Khan."

A better approach would have been to stick to the John Harrison character as the villain or if they wanted to use Khan so badly been upfront about it, actually write and develop the character as Khan, and announced to the world as soon as Cumberbatch was cast that he was indeed Khan.

Yup. And since the name Khan was meaningless to Kirk, Spock, McCoy, the reveal carried no weight except for with the audience. The whole thing was a missed opportunity.

after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.

 

[CorporalClegg]

after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.

For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.

 

[Immolatus]

after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.

For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.

why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ If it looks like Khan, acts like Khan and feels like Khan, name it Shinzon.

 

[Saul]

after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.

For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.

why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.

Well why not call the movie Star Battles and instead of Kirk lets have Captain Yeats and instead of Klingons lets call them Blingtons.

 

[F. King Daniel]

after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.

For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.

why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.

The Dark Knight, starring Heath Ledger as Bozo the Clown. Yeah, that would've worked just as well

 

[The Wormhole]

after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.

For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.

why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.

Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.

 

[Praetor]

Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.

I would also argue with the notion of Khan being Kirk's Joker.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.

I would also argue with the notion of Khan being Kirk's Joker.

As would I, but it's an argument I've lost in the past.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.

I would also argue with the notion of Khan being Kirk's Joker.

As would I, but it's an argument I've lost in the past.

But the question isn't "who are the bad guys;" it's "Who is Kirk/Batman's primary nemesis and foil?"