War against someone who has no qualms about using it, and uses it often.
Under stable times, she wouldn't be using it, and besides, since Voldemort had taken over the Government, it was the Government they were fighting/overthrowing.
Bellatrix v. Molly
- Thread starter Vanyel
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Under stable times, she wouldn't be using it, and besides, since Voldemort had taken over the Government, it was the Government they were fighting/overthrowing.
They are forbidden, and punishable by imprisonment in Azkaban. However, I'm guessing a self defense/defense of others clause, that there was no longer a legitimate governing body, or because it was - for all intents and purposes - a civil war no one beyond the Death Eaters were punished.
That's true. A good example is Harry's duel with Voldy in Goblet of Fire, where he is saved by a bit of wand-lore that only comes out after the fact-- and it's really something they could have warned him about, since it's known they had twin wands. "When wands with twin cores duel, the winner will start forcing the loser to regurgitate all the spells it has recently cast, in reverse" -- wha??? Come on, J.K., if you're going to start pulling rules out of your hat, at least show us the hat. Anyway, why would casting AK in reverse cause a ghost to jump out of someone's wand? And you notice the movie didn't even explain why the ghosts appeared-- they just did. Talk about vague.
This is neither the first nor last time Harry was bailed out by a magical twist revealed after the fact, but I consider it one of the most blatant.
I'd imagine that the laws regarding Avada Kevada (seeing as how the books are set in Britain) follow the classic definition of Murder - Unlawful Killing Within the King/Queen's Peace...
Here, as you say it was self defence so that would make it lawful killing, and since it was a state of war, that also makes it a killing outside the Queen's Peace...
Legally she wouldn't suffer any repercussions - as for her soul, I suppose it's down to her to decide what the resulting effect would be...
The Twin Wands was beaten into our heads, we knew something major had to be up, and didn't we already learn part of that is the Wands not working against each other? The Regurgitation is merely more of why they don't work against each other. And didn't they use the spell to check Harry's Wand at the beginning of the Book?
I think it's fair to say "Chekov's Wand" was on the wall (...Er...Sorry about that Walter, I'm sure that can't sound good to you
).
You couldn't really reveal more of it ahead of time, and still have it work out to an unexpected twist you want to learn more about.
I think it's fair to say "Chekov's Wand" was on the wall (...Er...Sorry about that Walter, I'm sure that can't sound good to you
). You couldn't really reveal more of it ahead of time, and still have it work out to an unexpected twist you want to learn more about.
Any wand could be tested to see what spells it had recently cast. Harry's wand was tested to see if it had cast the spell that made the Dark Mark over the grounds where the Quidich match was played. That was at the beginning of the book, the Goblet of Fire. That the spirits of those recently killed by the wand coming forth that was a surprise to even Dumbledore. I think the strange things that happened when Harry and Vodermort dueled was due to Harry being a Horcrux. That duel may have been Harry's first hint that there was something more than "Being the boy who lived" to him. Wand lore is extensive. I don't think there is any witch or wizard that knows it all.
I don't want to derail the thread, but this is one of my huge pet peeves about the way JK wrote the series. There was no set of in-universe rules that had to be followed, which led to a lot of deus ex machina endings. Nearly every book ended that way, too.
Book 1) You can't touch Harry's face or you'll melt.
Book 2) Don't worry, a Phoenix will show up and give you a sword!
Book 3) Time travel saved you in the future... in the past!
Book 4) Oh, by the way. You can't die. Sorry, we should have mentioned that earlier.
Book 5) Dumbledore to the rescue
Book 6) Instead of Malfoy doing his job, he pusses out and lets Snape do it
Book 7) This time, Harry can die, but its cool because he'll come back to life, but then comes the BIGGEST cop-out of the series: Voldemort essentially kills himself.
U're ah wizahd, 'Arry!
The end of book 7 was the one that pissed me off the most. I wanted to see Harry kill Voldemort, and because its a children's book she found a way to destroy Voldemort without Harry casting a single spell.
That being said, I loved the series, the above is just simple literary criticism.
Unknown to anyone. The magic Lily unwittingly used continued to protect Harry. Voldermort could not touch him, until some of Harry's blood was used to recreate Voldermort's body.
The Sword of Griffindor presents itself to any Griffindore who truly needs it. And it came by way of the sorting hat.
Actually time travel from the future saved them in the past, same as any story that uses time travel.
Everyone can die. Don't really know what you mean by that one.
The entire Order of the Phoenix was alerted. Dumbledore came when he was needed.
It had been planed for Snape to Kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore was not going to defend himself from Snape, by doing that the Elder Wand would retain it's loyalty to Dumbledore and therefore could not be used by anyone else. But Draco disarmed Dumbledore, ruining their plan.
Once all the Horcruxes were destroyed Voldrermort was vulnerable and could be killed like any other person in the story. Harry came back to life because the Horcrux side of him was killed, but it was strongly implied that Harry didn't have to go back. And Voldermort died from the rebounded Killing Curse, since the Elder Wand was now Harry's and it would not kill its chosen Wizard.
I too loved it.
The problem is not the explanations, the problem is that they're still deus ex machina solutions. The explanations flow as if the universe is reshaping itself to protect Harry. They come across that way because they're sprung on the reader at the last minute. If they are considered perfectly logical and reasonable explanations, they could be introduced earlier in the story. If they cannot be introduced earlier in the story without ruining it, that's a flaw in the story.
I'm sorry, I'm the one that derailed the thread. I was just taking Gaith's side. Tighr wasn't helping the situation either... but we knew that.
I don't dislike the Potter series. It's just that its flaws make it harder to accept as a work of professional fiction.
I'm sorry, I'm the one that derailed the thread. I was just taking Gaith's side. Tighr wasn't helping the situation either... but we knew that.
I don't dislike the Potter series. It's just that its flaws make it harder to accept as a work of professional fiction.
Just taking one of them, the Book 3 ending isn't a deus ex machina, we just have incomplete information. It's part of the nature of how the story is told by having such a limited perspective on Harry, but there are hints about the wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey beforehand.
No, I don't consider the wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey to be a deus ex machina. It's hinted at throughout the story, revealed to Harry when needed (rather than after the fact) and the characters know the rules of how it works so they can make use of it appropriately. In storytelling terms, that's acceptable.
Although I have to admit, it's an interesting universe where time travel is an exact science and wand lore is not.
Although I have to admit, it's an interesting universe where time travel is an exact science and wand lore is not.
I completely agree. I love the Potter movies (haven't read the books), but the endings, especially of the first two, are a little annoying because they come out of nowhere!
VoldeQuirrel touches Harry and dies...but why? Don't worry! Dumbledore will explain everything later.
The phoenix saves the day by bringing Harry the sorting hat, which magically gives Harry a sword! And then the phoenix cries and makes everybody better! But...um...why? How the hell did the bird even know what was going on? Don't worry! Dumbledore will explain everything later.
I don't have a problem with the endings of the other stories, but the first two are pretty bad.
Indeed. The time travel in "Prisoner of Azkaban" is actually my favorite use of time travel in any work of fiction I've ever seen. I love that it forms a time loop, and I love that the characters actually have to interact with their own past.
That's actually my favorite of the seven books, and the movie is easily the best of all the books as well. Cuaron did a phenomenal job directing it. It represented a change in the way the films are framed: The characters are shown wearing street clothes for the first time (God forbid you let wizards wear contemporary clothes instead of robes!) and the pacing was much improved.
The ending it the least egregious of the others, as has been previously pointed out. The foreshadowing is key. Harry casting the Patronus is easily one of the most powerful scenes in the whole series.
But, I couldn't leave it out in my series analysis, so I had to throw in the bit about time travel. Time travel is still a plot device!
So is Harry being a wizard. People throw the phrase "plot device" around way too much.
Right, but by reading a book about magic, I have accepted that this universe includes wizards. I have no qualms about the existance of giants, dragons, werewolves, elves, or wands in these books.
Otherwise, it'd be like watching Star Trek and being disgusted that FTL exists.
To be fair to the first book, as I understand it, JKR had only 1 book written and didn't think there would be anymore. But it took off and she had to come up with a whole series of books. So seen in that light, and that she's a first time author. I can buy the ending. The first book when compared to the last is completely different. Some kids, like my little cousin (well not so little anymore) is just a year younger than Harry. He grew up with him. The books grew too, and starting with the second book, the idea of Horcruxes, and their being a deeper connection between Harry Voldermort are hinted at; Harry being a Parselmouth and being able to see into Voldermort's head are two examples.
I must say, even though we've gone way off track, I've been enjoying the discussion.
I never thought Molly would say "shit" if she had a mouthful. I remembering reading that part and thinking, Bellatrix is in trouble and hoping Molly wouild just grab Ginny, Luna and Hermione and apparate away from Bellatrix.
I must say, even though we've gone way off track, I've been enjoying the discussion.
I never thought Molly would say "shit" if she had a mouthful. I remembering reading that part and thinking, Bellatrix is in trouble and hoping Molly wouild just grab Ginny, Luna and Hermione and apparate away from Bellatrix.