Bellatrix v. Molly

[Vanyel]

The Duel I was most anticipating, even more than Harry's and Voldemort's, was between Molly and Bellatrix.

However, I do have a question. Harry and the gang had Bellatrix's wand. "The wand chooses the Wizard." But Bellatrix wand was unrelenting according to Mr. Olivander. But Draco's wand changed allegiance to Harry.

During their duel, could Bellatrix loss be due to the fact that she did not have her wand, or because Molly, in her rage at the attack on Ginny and the death of one of her sons, gave her the strength to win? Or the default answer, both.

The Duel has my favorite line in the books or movies, "Not my daughter you bitch!"

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oybz5Q-If9M[/yt]

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I think it's the idea that a mother's love is a very powerful thing and you're just not supposed to screw with it. Bellatrix screwed with it. Molly wasn't about to lose another child and possibly did get a magic surge.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I can't remember how Harry, Ron and Hermione got Bellatrix's wand. Was it during the attack at Malfoy Manor when Dobby rescued them? I remember Dobby seizing Narcissa's wand, but not Bellatrix's.

Anyway, I think it's both. Not messing with a mother's love is a huge theme in the books and it has been shown that if a wand hasn't chosen its user, then that user can't access its full power.

 

[Kemaiku]

Lily giving her life for Harry inbued him some unintended protective magic. If the attack on Ginny spurred the same kind of involuntary magic to fuel Molly's own spells it could well have overwhelmed Bellatrix, her original wand or not.

 

[Gaith]

Molly won because JK Rowling wrote it that way.

No, but seriously, the whole wand stuff - already vague because it relies on thoughts rather than physical strength - is pretty much completely arbitrary. Filch could have dueled Dumby himself, and JKR could have written in some obscure magic clause as to why the former would win, if only for one specific instance.

 

[Kemaiku]

Your long standing hate of this franchise is well known, but do please shit on the discussion some more.

 

[propita]

Look at her face, Molly was blocking hexes from Bellatrix and on the defensive, then got pissed and summoned her strength. She was shooting white hexes but soon switched to green Avada Kedavras. The final attack was white, since Bellatrix was already dead.

Not quite the book, but movies are rarely the book.

And, for all I love HP (and waited 12 hours in line for each of the last books), Gaith is right. JKR could’ve written anything and justified it and we readers would’ve accepted it. I mean, if Filch “saw the light” and drew a line between his badness and Voldy’s ways by attacking Voldy, readers would’ve said, “Go, Filch!” Redemption is a part of JKR--look at Draco, the Malfoys, and, of course, Snape.

 

[RoJoHen]

I don't know anything from the books (only seen the movies), but I never really got the impression that Bellatrix was any more powerful a witch than Molly. Aside from Harry, Voldemort, and Dumbledore, I always figured the Death Eaters and the Order of the Phoenix were pretty evenly matched in terms of magical ability. Bellatrix could have easily beaten Molly, but Molly had some extra incentive to kick Bellatrix's ass.

 

[23skidoo]

Molly won because she was the superior witch and Bellatrix made the fatal error of underestimating her. One of the big things about her character, both in the books and in the movies, is it was always under the surface that she was a lot more powerful than she let on. (Considering the size of her family - all powerful witches and wizards - that's not surprising). So the whole point of the scene isn't the semantics over wands, it's the fact we saw Molly's full power come to bore, having been unleashed (and probably she was unaware of its extent) by the death of her son and the near-death of Ginny. I haven't read Deathly Hallows in a few years, but I seem to recall that in the book it was very strongly implied that Molly used avada kadavra against Bellatrix (which apparently, despite being in a do-or-die situation, no one else on the side of right used during the battle). For the movie they went with something a bit more theatrical since AK would have just made Bellatrix keel over.

Alex

 

[Vanyel]

Look at her face, Molly was blocking hexes from Bellatrix and on the defensive, then got pissed and summoned her strength. She was shooting white hexes but soon switched to green Avada Kedavras. The final attack was white, since Bellatrix was already dead.

Not quite the book, but movies are rarely the book.

In the movie, Molly wasn't using AK's on Bellatrix. The Killing Curse cannot be blocked; except by Harry and only against Voldemort. Harry could block AK's from Voldermort because of their connection, because Harry was a Horcrux. The imaginary used in the book to describe the fight between Molly and Bellatrix was awesome. Heat, melting stones, then an AK slipped in while Bellatrix was off balance and unable to move out of its way.

I don't know anything from the books (only seen the movies), but I never really got the impression that Bellatrix was any more powerful a witch than Molly.

Bellatrix was a powerful, skilled, deadly, and quiet insane a witch. In the book, she was fighting Hermione, Luna and Ginny simultaneously, with an AK just missing Ginny. That's when Molly got involved. The movies never really touched on how powerful she was, but if you take the books into account Molly was jumping into the lions den to rescue her daughter and avenge her son.

Molly won because she was the superior witch and Bellatrix made the fatal error of underestimating her. One of the big things about her character, both in the books and in the movies, is it was always under the surface that she was a lot more powerful than she let on. (Considering the size of her family - all powerful witches and wizards - that's not surprising). So the whole point of the scene isn't the semantics over wands, it's the fact we saw Molly's full power come to bore, having been unleashed (and probably she was unaware of its extent) by the death of her son and the near-death of Ginny. I haven't read Deathly Hallows in a few years, but I seem to recall that in the book it was very strongly implied that Molly used avada kadavra against Bellatrix (which apparently, despite being in a do-or-die situation, no one else on the side of right used during the battle). For the movie they went with something a bit more theatrical since AK would have just made Bellatrix keel over.

Alex

Molly and Bellatrix were both powerful and you're right in that Molly was not one to really show off how powerful she is; but in terms of sheer power, and ferocity, Bellatrix had the clear advantage. And they are both cousins. Pure bloods are about as inbred as European Royal Families. No one under estimated Bellatrix; but you're right again, I can see that Bellatrix did under estimate Molly and that gave Molly the edge. And, as I recall, the book out right says Molly hit Bellatrix with the Killing Curse.

 

[propita]

I watched the clip again. Molly's throwing green/white. Maybe not AKs but damn close. And yeah, no blocking them. My bad.

Evil is often willing to use more of their strength while good tends to pull their punches. Until pushed too far. Bellatrix underestimated love with Molly just as Voldy did with, well, everyone.

 

[Alrik]

As to Bella's power and ruthlessness, don't forget, she was the one who took Sirius out with an AK. IIRC, I think she tried throwing one Harry's way shortly thereafter with the line, "You have to mean it for it to work.", or something like that.

Sidenote: Ironically, the wife and I just watched this on Saturday.

 

[cultcross]

I watched the clip again. Molly's throwing green/white. Maybe not AKs but damn close. And yeah, no blocking them. My bad.

They never really followed that all that faithfully in the movies. You see AKs (or at least green spell light) being blocked in the films.

And this is a sci-fi fantasy topic, so whoooosh

Molly won because JK Rowling wrote it that way.

No, but seriously, the whole wand stuff - already vague because it relies on thoughts rather than physical strength - is pretty much completely arbitrary. Filch could have dueled Dumby himself, and JKR could have written in some obscure magic clause as to why the former would win, if only for one specific instance.

We get it, you hate Harry Potter. Why do you even come into minutiae threads like this about a franchise you despise?

 

[Gaith]

I've said it before; I'll say it again: I don't hate HP, I'm just disappointed with its Post Year-4 direction. And my above post wasn't dumping on the franchise or its fans, it was adding to the discussion by making the point that there is no single answer to the OP's question, because wand fights are inherently vague. That's not even necessarily a criticism; it is what it is.

 

[Vanyel]

In the movie, while other spells may cast a green light, only Harry could block an AK, and only because he's a Horcrux.
Watch:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPBkcMNnwX4[/yt]

I don't think we've ever seen anyone but Barty Crouch, Jr. (disguised as Mad Eye Moody), Bellatrix and Voldermort use the Killing Curse in the movies.

 

[Vanyel]

Oh and I forgot Peter Pettigrew, used it to kill Cedric.

ETA: I forgot, Snape used it on Dumbledore.

 

[tighr]

Look at her face, Molly was blocking hexes from Bellatrix and on the defensive, then got pissed and summoned her strength. She was shooting white hexes but soon switched to green Avada Kedavras. The final attack was white, since Bellatrix was already dead.

Not quite the book, but movies are rarely the book.

In the movie, Molly wasn't using AK's on Bellatrix. The Killing Curse cannot be blocked; except by Harry and only against Voldemort. Harry could block AK's from Voldermort because of their connection, because Harry was a Horcrux.

Also, and it's been a while since I've read the books, but isn't the Avada Kedavra curse only able to be cast by being spoken? I don't recall an instance in the books of it being cast nonverbally. It makes sense, since it is such a powerful curse, that it must be spoken.

Of course, the movies throw rules out the window in deference to cinematic license.

 

[Kemaiku]

The films never showed one of the three Unforgivable curses being non-verbal, they were always spoken aloud.

 

[Vanyel]

I believe that the Three Unforgivable Curses must be spoken and must be meant. Harry was able to knock Bellatrix down in the fight at the Department of Ministries, but not really hurt her more than the fall did because he really didn't mean it. In the books, students at Hogwarts, and presumably other witching school, learn to cast spells non verbally in their later years at school. Also the books did say that Harry showed a remarkable ability to resist the Imperious Curse.

 

[Broccoli]

I've only seen the movies, so I don't really know, but I was under the impression that the killing curse was somewhat forbidden. That if you used it, you're in deep shit trouble. If Mrs. Weasly used it, as some are suggesting, how come it was consequence free?