Episode just starting as I throw this up!
"Before the Flood" Grading and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The Grinch Doctor
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1. The guitar title sequence was beyond corny.
2. The Fisher King looked like a bad video game character once he was fully lit - and his lumbering around outside was even worse.
3. The ghosts made very Nazgul-esque whisperings when surrounding Lunn.
4. This is at least the third time in the Moffat era that the Doctor has faked his supposedly "fixed" death.
2. The Fisher King looked like a bad video game character once he was fully lit - and his lumbering around outside was even worse.
3. The ghosts made very Nazgul-esque whisperings when surrounding Lunn.
4. This is at least the third time in the Moffat era that the Doctor has faked his supposedly "fixed" death.
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Was that the worst second part of a story with a great first part ever?
And Steve, if you happen to be reading, how about no more stories where the Doctor's absolutely going to die but, oh no, wait, he doesn't?
Plus, if the portrayal of the Doctor this year is as heavily influenced by Capaldi as has been claimed, maybe it's not just Moffat who needs to go...
And Steve, if you happen to be reading, how about no more stories where the Doctor's absolutely going to die but, oh no, wait, he doesn't?
Plus, if the portrayal of the Doctor this year is as heavily influenced by Capaldi as has been claimed, maybe it's not just Moffat who needs to go...
A very good conclusion to an excellent two-parter. Although the solution was predictable (holographic ghost, The Doctor in the coffin), the journey through unraveling the mystery was engaging enough.
While this episode wasn't as eerie and atmospheric as the last one, the near-silence the audience gets from Cass' perspective as she was stalked by Moran and her vibration "sight" made that scene wonderfully chilling and nerve-wracking.
I enjoyed the ongoing theme of how The Doctor (unintentionally or not) changes his companions and how they react to life-threatening situations for better or for worse. Speaking of Clara, I enjoyed the juxtaposition of her cleverly figuring out that Bennet would not be threatened by the ghost then a beat later, completely forget that Cass is deaf and lose her in the corridors.
Deliberate or not, I liked how The Doctor's dire resistance to preventing someone from dying in a fixed situation echoed more Big Finish's Storm Warning (and the overall Charley Pollard paradox) than The Waters of Mars. Or maybe that's just me because I love the former and loathe the latter.
However, what was deliberate was the Fisher King's stalking of the abandoned building a la the Minotaur in The God Complex, Toby Whithouse's earlier masterpiece.
While this episode wasn't as eerie and atmospheric as the last one, the near-silence the audience gets from Cass' perspective as she was stalked by Moran and her vibration "sight" made that scene wonderfully chilling and nerve-wracking.
I enjoyed the ongoing theme of how The Doctor (unintentionally or not) changes his companions and how they react to life-threatening situations for better or for worse. Speaking of Clara, I enjoyed the juxtaposition of her cleverly figuring out that Bennet would not be threatened by the ghost then a beat later, completely forget that Cass is deaf and lose her in the corridors.
Deliberate or not, I liked how The Doctor's dire resistance to preventing someone from dying in a fixed situation echoed more Big Finish's Storm Warning (and the overall Charley Pollard paradox) than The Waters of Mars. Or maybe that's just me because I love the former and loathe the latter.
However, what was deliberate was the Fisher King's stalking of the abandoned building a la the Minotaur in The God Complex, Toby Whithouse's earlier masterpiece.
I think the revived series has some notoriety for second parts which wreck a good first. This is most clearly one of them.
I will say immediately that there was nothing especially bad about this episode (i.e. nothing that really annoyed me to the level of... well pretty much everything last year), but there was nothing especially good either.
In particular - and this happens a lot when two halves of a story have different settings- the tone of Under the Lake was completely lost. We went from an exciting, atmospheric Base Under Siege romp to yet another pseudointellectual timey wimey snooze-fest bumbling around in Russified Scotland for forty minutes, a wasted monster and a slapped-on love story.
The bootstrap storyline seemed to assume that predestination paradoxes had never occurred to the viewer. Fair enough; if push comes to shove then younger viewers should come first and relatively casual viewers should come before hardcore enthusiasts. I found that it grated a bit, though; this should be old hat to the Doctor - stable time loops etc - and so should the whole cheating-death thing. Eleven was apparently stuck with the Lake Silencio problem for nearly 200 years, so surely this kind of thing should be second nature too. And the Doctor's attempt to change history seemed equally incongruous, for pretty much the same reason. I guess he knew the TARDIS would block him.
Didn't like the Doctor-in-cryogenic thing. (Is he now 139 years older still?)
Liked the guitar, the monster and the ersatz TARDIS crew.
Found it a pleasant episode overall. I'm giving it a Good based on my own experience of it; mileage may vary.
Did anyone else think we were dealing with House from The Doctor's Wife when the Fisher King spoke?
Didn't like the Doctor-in-cryogenic thing. (Is he now 139 years older still?)
Liked the guitar, the monster and the ersatz TARDIS crew.
Found it a pleasant episode overall. I'm giving it a Good based on my own experience of it; mileage may vary.
Did anyone else think we were dealing with House from The Doctor's Wife when the Fisher King spoke?
Since it wasn't Moff who wrote this one, why are you blaming him?
C'mon, man, I figured you for smarter than this.
Moffat's long past his time regardless of whatever individual story we're talking about.
Sadly, Whithouse seemed to be channeling him heavily this week. And was there anyone who didn't know it was the Doctor in suspended animation or that the introduced-out-of-nowhere-last-week hologram technology would come back again?
Ugh, its the same old "lets rewrite the fixed point in time" story yet again.
By now, the audience is already intimately familiar with the show's rules for time travel. It's been repeated so many times, from Water of Mars to Pandorica Opens to Christmas Carol to Day of The Doctor. Fixed points cannot be changed but outcomes can be subverted as long as the fixed events still "appear" to happen. Its been used so many times that its no longer the brilliant idea it used to be.
By now, the audience is already intimately familiar with the show's rules for time travel. It's been repeated so many times, from Water of Mars to Pandorica Opens to Christmas Carol to Day of The Doctor. Fixed points cannot be changed but outcomes can be subverted as long as the fixed events still "appear" to happen. Its been used so many times that its no longer the brilliant idea it used to be.
Yeah... I figured wrong. *shakes head sadly*
The audience churns and the show is shown on BBC1 at prime time - many people watching tonight will have never seen or even remember Water of Mars for example - some of the current audience might have been two or three when that aired.
Well, the audience seems to be down to the hardcore faithful at this point; several million more casual viewers seem to have better things to do these days.
I really enjoyed it 
yes the Doctor dying trope's gotta end, the timey wimey ending didn't quite make sense and the Fisher King in the harsh light of day looked like a classic era monster (and not in a good way) but it was funny, exciting, creepy, basically all the things the best Who episodes are. Capaldi continues to be excellent, as is Jenna, and it benefited from a really good guest cast. It's a shame O'Donnell died, I've always liked Morven Christie and her subdued riff on Osgood was rather nice, and I thought Arsher Ali was very good as Bennett (in fact I might add him to my maybe Doctor material one day list). Cass and Lunn were good as well, loved Cass being stalked by Moran.
Loved the 1980 Soviet town in Scotland setting, reminded me somewhat of the base in Curse of Fenric.
4 eps in and not a single duffer as far as I'm concerned.
yes the Doctor dying trope's gotta end, the timey wimey ending didn't quite make sense and the Fisher King in the harsh light of day looked like a classic era monster (and not in a good way) but it was funny, exciting, creepy, basically all the things the best Who episodes are. Capaldi continues to be excellent, as is Jenna, and it benefited from a really good guest cast. It's a shame O'Donnell died, I've always liked Morven Christie and her subdued riff on Osgood was rather nice, and I thought Arsher Ali was very good as Bennett (in fact I might add him to my maybe Doctor material one day list). Cass and Lunn were good as well, loved Cass being stalked by Moran.Loved the 1980 Soviet town in Scotland setting, reminded me somewhat of the base in Curse of Fenric.
4 eps in and not a single duffer as far as I'm concerned.
Good to see someone else really enjoyed this episode. It seems like my post disappeared within the negativity.I really enjoyed it
Yes! I thought the same thing.
I voted "decent" Its not a great follow up from the first part, and I'm sick and tired of "The Doctor is totally going to die, for real, and he can't avoid it" stories. I think that the fisher king looked fine, although I've always been forgiving of the alien costumes on Doctor Who, so ones that aren't amazing don't usually bug me. It was nice to at least see a hologram of The Doctor where he actually dresses like The Doctor, maybe we'll get lucky and see him actually wear something like that in an episode this season 
Overall, this wasn't a bad episode, just very bland, and not a great follow up to part 1.
Overall, this wasn't a bad episode, just very bland, and not a great follow up to part 1.Aren't ratings down across the board, as has been discussed in the 2 million fewer thread.
Yes. And obviously it's the casual rather than the hardcore viewers who are going to have gone.
There's only two ways to get the casual viewers back; one is to keep making a great show and hope they catch an episode and get re-hooked, the second is to shake things up, and much as people may or may not want that shake up to involve Moffat the truth is that the casual viewer won't give a shit about the show runner, so that change would have to be the Doctor, which frankly I think would be unfair on Capaldi.
Option 1 is playing the long game, option 2 is the knee jerk, quick win, but the downside is that you can't keep playing that card. I'd hope the BBC would go with option 1, I fear they'd go for option 2...
Maybe a new companion could generate some interest, especially if an old companion returned or someone relatively famous/unexpected got the job.
Option 1 is playing the long game, option 2 is the knee jerk, quick win, but the downside is that you can't keep playing that card. I'd hope the BBC would go with option 1, I fear they'd go for option 2...
Maybe a new companion could generate some interest, especially if an old companion returned or someone relatively famous/unexpected got the job.
Dr Who was pretty decent again - the precredit felt like padding, though, despite the relevance, but the 4th-wall-breaking theme is was a highlight. Some dialogue bits were playing into my mood this weekend more than I liked, but that's not a failing in the episode, quite the opposite, really. I 've given that same advice as at the end myself, and learned it the same way, after all.
I must say, though, how freaky it is that Moffat era Who keeps echoing my actual life several times every other episode...
I must say, though, how freaky it is that Moffat era Who keeps echoing my actual life several times every other episode...