Before Dishonor
- Thread starter Starbreaker
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Geordi says that some 'experts' at Starfleet didn't believe there were female Borg. Seven says this is stupid. Geordi says 'Yeah, well, go argue with self-declared experts'. the last line being the particular kick in the nads to Richard Arnold.
But wasn't Richard Arnold just following the Rule of Rodenberry? I read it as "You're dead and your stooge lost his job so I've won this argument."
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Valin, if you like Peter David' style (over the top situations/universe) you'll like this novel - as evidenced by this thread.
If you don't like this comic-booky style, you will definitely not like 'Before Dishonor'.
Well, the debate was that Richard Arnold was vetting the manuscripts and was able to say, "Gene doesn't like this bit" when it may have been "Gene probably wouldn't like this bit".
GR did get in a bit of a snit about a flier he saw which called convention guest of honor, Diane Duane, "Creator of the Rihannsu" (ie. the Romulans, as renamed by her with an alien name), so suddenly Richard was coming done on the novels and comics establishing anything "new" about established characters, tech or aliens. For example, when Jean Lorrah and AC Crispin tried to give the Andorians a background culture and specific religious practices, or when Peter David tried to give Mrs Troi the power of the Q, or when Peter David decided to feature a female Borg - and then a sister for Guinan (ie. Delcara had to become a "soul sister", not an actual sister).
The writers and editors began to doubt that GR was having the input. Peter David had to do a few sneaky things to get certain aspects approved, like talking to Majel Barrett. Rather that GR was trusting RA to vet the manuscripts because he trusted RA to keep the licensees from getting to big for their boots.
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And to be honest, that wasn't the case for me...
I'm a fan of Peter David and his style. I've pretty much enjoyed every Trek Novel of his to date. I like New Frontier and especially Calhoun so much that I think they should put the character to film.
But...
I hated this book. (Not because it was bad per se, but because it didn't track at all with what I'd just read in Q&A)
Granted, that's because of how I approached this novel, as a continuation of a storyline and not as a stand alone piece of fiction.
I'd gotten used to the novels being consistent and providing continuation from one adventure to the next. A "Buffy - Season 8" of novels for TNG if you will, but...
I just couldn't get into this book because it so wildly diverged from everything else in the series in both tone and characterization.
It's been long enough, but I still don't like to think about this book anymore, and just try to forget it ever happened.
Especially considering the outcomes of many of those characters.
didn't bother me. it was just a bad day at the office for Kadohata and moreso Leybenzon, but T'lana was pretty consistently a smugly superior bitch in Resistance, Q&A and Before Dishonour...
By that argument The Trouble With Tribbles, A Piece of the Action, Trials and Tribbleations and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home should never have been produced since they wildly diverged from everything else in their series in both tone and characterization.
Sometimes the characters just have to let their hair down and go on a wild ride.I'm generally a fan of PAD's work. Imadzi and Q-Squared are still my favorite Trek novels. And A Rock and a Hard Place is one of the earliest Trek novels I fell in love with.
But I thought Before Dishonor was PAD at his worst. The Borg, with their super ships and eating Pluto came off as cartoonish. I agree with most posters that there was inconsistent characterization between Q & A and BD, for the new TNG characters. Calhoun's appearance felt tacked on just because PAD could do it, and it did nothing to advance the story.
The only character in BD that I liked was Grim Vargo, so I knew there was a problem. I thought Resistance, Greater than the Sum, and Destiny trilogy all handled the Borg incursion arc better.
But I thought Before Dishonor was PAD at his worst. The Borg, with their super ships and eating Pluto came off as cartoonish. I agree with most posters that there was inconsistent characterization between Q & A and BD, for the new TNG characters. Calhoun's appearance felt tacked on just because PAD could do it, and it did nothing to advance the story.
The only character in BD that I liked was Grim Vargo, so I knew there was a problem. I thought Resistance, Greater than the Sum, and Destiny trilogy all handled the Borg incursion arc better.
By that argument The Trouble With Tribbles, A Piece of the Action, Trials and Tribbleations and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home should never have been produced since they wildly diverged from everything else in their series in both tone and characterization.
It's not an argument, it's my opinion. My opinion about Before Dishonor. Generalizing that to anything else is a misrepresentation of what I'm discussing.
Besides, I wasn't talking about the tone of the story, I'm was talking about the tone of the characters.
I didn't say BD should never have been produced, I said I couldn't get into it, as a continuation from Q&A based on it's divergence in both tone and characterization.
I liked the idea behind BD, that's why I bought it. However, it was executed poorly and in my mind the main reason was because it didn't track from the previous novel with respect to the CHARACTERS and their establishment.
I didn't misrepresent anything. I was offering an alternative opinion. 
I can't speak to the characterization of the new characters because I haven't read Q & A. I will say that the differing characterization probably stemmed from the fact that Q & A and BD were most likely written simultaneously. Peter David probably only had an outline and maybe a few chapters of Q & A to work with. If he had read the preceding book the characterizations would have been consistent. He made due with what he had and in my opinion wrote one hell of a fun book. Besides I think Christopher was able to retcon the different behavior pretty well in GttS.
I can't speak to the characterization of the new characters because I haven't read Q & A. I will say that the differing characterization probably stemmed from the fact that Q & A and BD were most likely written simultaneously. Peter David probably only had an outline and maybe a few chapters of Q & A to work with. If he had read the preceding book the characterizations would have been consistent. He made due with what he had and in my opinion wrote one hell of a fun book. Besides I think Christopher was able to retcon the different behavior pretty well in GttS.
I enjoy NF very much. I like how David can go from laugh-out-load to dead serious within a scene. Kind of like original Star Trek, but a bit more larger-than-life.
The only reason I didn't pick up "Before Dishonor" earlier, was that I'm not that much into how the after-Nemesis Trek universe is being treated.
I didn't misrepresent anything. I was offering an alternative opinion.
Christopher did a fantastic job with Greater Than The Sum.
The fact that he had to retcon anything pretty much says it all though.
Despite the circumstances of the book's creation (which happened about like you describe) It doesn't change how I feel about BD. The book doesn't fit in it's slot. It could of been done better, and it wasn't. That's a shame.
Your use of emoticons gave me the impression that you were sticking your tongue out (and now, rolling your eyes) at my comments. I guess that's why I thought you were putting words in my mouth when you said "By that argument" and then said a bunch of great episodes/stories should never have been made based on said comments.
Didn't realize you hadn't read Q&A, that kind of makes it harder to understand my feelings of not dislike but Annoyance for this book.
It annoys me.
It's not a big deal though.
So why are you feeling that way about the characterizations in Before Dishonor and not in Q&A? Only because by luck of the draw KRAD's book was published a few weeks earlier ( in the times of two books a month they might had been published the same month)?
If you want to blame someone for the inconsistencies blame Margaret Clark, she commissioned the books to be written simultaneously, but obviously wasn't able to keep the manuscripts consistent.
I didn't misrepresent anything. I was offering an alternative opinion.
Christopher did a fantastic job with Greater Than The Sum.
The fact that he had to retcon anything pretty much says it all though.
Despite the circumstances of the book's creation (which happened about like you describe) It doesn't change how I feel about BD. The book doesn't fit in it's slot. It could of been done better, and it wasn't. That's a shame.
Your use of emoticons gave me the impression that you were sticking your tongue out (and now, rolling your eyes) at my comments. I guess that's why I thought you were putting words in my mouth when you said "By that argument" and then said a bunch of great episodes/stories should never have been made based on said comments.
Didn't realize you hadn't read Q&A, that kind of makes it harder to understand my feelings of not dislike but Annoyance for this book.
It annoys me.
It's not a big deal though.
You know.... I kind of skimmed your first posting so... I admit if I had taken the time to read it in full... I would have got what you meant and... Not gotten on your nerves. So... Sorry.
No blame necessary.
Bad things just happen.
Would I have liked BD more, if it had followed with Q&A... probably.
Do I really care this long after the fact... No.
I didn't misrepresent anything. I was offering an alternative opinion.
Christopher did a fantastic job with Greater Than The Sum.
The fact that he had to retcon anything pretty much says it all though.
Despite the circumstances of the book's creation (which happened about like you describe) It doesn't change how I feel about BD. The book doesn't fit in it's slot. It could of been done better, and it wasn't. That's a shame.
Your use of emoticons gave me the impression that you were sticking your tongue out (and now, rolling your eyes) at my comments. I guess that's why I thought you were putting words in my mouth when you said "By that argument" and then said a bunch of great episodes/stories should never have been made based on said comments.
Didn't realize you hadn't read Q&A, that kind of makes it harder to understand my feelings of not dislike but Annoyance for this book.
It annoys me.
It's not a big deal though.
You know.... I kind of skimmed your first posting so... I admit if I had taken the time to read it in full... I would have got what you meant and... Not gotten on your nerves. So... Sorry.
No worries mate.
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