Been hearing of bias against DS9 by Trek developers, true?
- Thread starter klingonhybrid
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Wish we could get it here, the last time I saw DS9 was on Spike at mid nights for some time, but then it got replaced with Voyager.
It would nice too see all treks running on the same channel, especial a sci-fi type channel.
It would nice too see all treks running on the same channel, especial a sci-fi type channel.
Agreed 1000% percent. Ive thought this many many times. I LOVE the TOS films; but can barely sit thru the TNG ones.
This is really very true. Rick Berman was so busy with the TNG movies and VOY that he had very little time to stick his nose into DS9. Ira Behr had a lot of latitude.
And so much the better, IMO...
As for the fans...well, I think around here it is liked. But I would guess that among casual Trek fans, TNG is more popular. A lot of casual Trek fans have never even seen DS9.
Well, I think 'for years', is a bit of an exaggeration....
How many run-thrus did they actually end up doing of DS9 on Spike? I thought it was very few.
^
Yeah, I'm not sure they completed one run-through before they bumped it into overnight hours.
And about the suits being so busy with the movies & VOY to regulate DS9, there are a few things that seem to explain that and debunk it a bit. First, DS9 was established and in syndication whereas VOY was on a network and wasn't just any show but the flagship for the tiny network. Any show in that position is going to be subject to more scrutiny and fine-tuning. Second, there was interference in DS9. Worf was introduced solely to boost ratings (hoping he carried TNG's ratings with him), likewise with the Klingon War (they felt Klingons were more familiar than the Jem'Hadar & Founders). DS9 was also subject to the wardrobe change introduced by First Contact.
Yeah, I'm not sure they completed one run-through before they bumped it into overnight hours.
And about the suits being so busy with the movies & VOY to regulate DS9, there are a few things that seem to explain that and debunk it a bit. First, DS9 was established and in syndication whereas VOY was on a network and wasn't just any show but the flagship for the tiny network. Any show in that position is going to be subject to more scrutiny and fine-tuning. Second, there was interference in DS9. Worf was introduced solely to boost ratings (hoping he carried TNG's ratings with him), likewise with the Klingon War (they felt Klingons were more familiar than the Jem'Hadar & Founders). DS9 was also subject to the wardrobe change introduced by First Contact.
I don't really care how DS9 is perceived except to say that I wish it was still on TV and it's not. Something about it turns people off and that affects decisions when re-airing it. DS9 didn't get the star treatment because Star Trek was alive and well. Voyager and the movies led to simply ending a series. I think it was a mistake to pigeon-hole the series into 7 years and not try for extended runs. I think the quality of the show holds up today and that's fine with me.
As for the Klingons and Worf's appearance on the show, it may have been done for ratings, but I think it's one of the great creative decisions they made. It showed there were consequences to the Dominion threat (Klingons becoming warriors) and it made the Cardassians joining the Dominion very understandable, even if we disagreed with the decision. I didn't see a cheap ploy. They worked it into the arc of the series. I think the Maquis were supposed to do this to the Cardassians, but that is disconnected to the theme of opression as the war with the Klingons connected to.
It's similar with Worf. He is a loner, an orphan, another character that fits into the Island of Mis-fits that is Deep Space Nine. I thought the romance with Jadzia was perfect. It would make sense she ends up with a Klingon. She would allow him to be Klingon. After her death, I think he didn't really have anything to do in the seventh season. But they did some great things with him. For instance, bringing Sisko's struggle full-circle by having him use the pain of losing Jennifer to crystalize for Worf what leaving Starfleet really means.
It helped the show. It seemed natural he would be there and it strengthened what we know about the Klingons.
Barely. What's more accurate is that none of the TNG follow-on Trek shows were nearly as popular as TNG, and that every year the ratings steadily declined for all of them:
Initial ratings aside, what does it matter for streaming it on Netflix now?
^ Well, that's the thing, isn't it?
These old discussions about ratings over a decade ago are kind of irrelevant to today.
My feeling is that for that scifi audience, at that time, serialized shows were something they were not used to and were not interested in. And I also think that some people quit DS9 very early thinking it 'wasn't going to go anywhere', when it actually did. And finally (and perhaps most importantly), DS9 was much darker and grittier than Happy Shiny TNG...and the audience at that time wanted that Happy Shiny Utopia thing...when really, TOS was not like that at all - it was really only a TNG thing.
My personal feeling is that DS9 was ahead of it's time as a highly serialized, darker, grittier show than was the norm then. But I think that after shows like BSG and LOST, audiences got a lot more used to (and saw the value in) serialized shows (and darker, gritter shows as well, for that matter)...and if shows like DS9 and B5 were made today, they might be more successful. Although DS9 would probably have to be made even darker than it was to make 'em happy now!
My advice is to just buy the DVDs, bit by bit as you are able. DS9 is never going to be a staple on cable - cable does not do well when it comes to airing serialized shows, IN ORDER, as they should be watched anyway.
Just get the DVDs and then you will never again have to be subject to the whims of programming directors with short attention spans.
These old discussions about ratings over a decade ago are kind of irrelevant to today.
My feeling is that for that scifi audience, at that time, serialized shows were something they were not used to and were not interested in. And I also think that some people quit DS9 very early thinking it 'wasn't going to go anywhere', when it actually did. And finally (and perhaps most importantly), DS9 was much darker and grittier than Happy Shiny TNG...and the audience at that time wanted that Happy Shiny Utopia thing...when really, TOS was not like that at all - it was really only a TNG thing.
My personal feeling is that DS9 was ahead of it's time as a highly serialized, darker, grittier show than was the norm then. But I think that after shows like BSG and LOST, audiences got a lot more used to (and saw the value in) serialized shows (and darker, gritter shows as well, for that matter)...and if shows like DS9 and B5 were made today, they might be more successful. Although DS9 would probably have to be made even darker than it was to make 'em happy now!
My advice is to just buy the DVDs, bit by bit as you are able. DS9 is never going to be a staple on cable - cable does not do well when it comes to airing serialized shows, IN ORDER, as they should be watched anyway.
Just get the DVDs and then you will never again have to be subject to the whims of programming directors with short attention spans.
I think fans are baffled by the idea that DS9 could get higher ratings, and yet a show with lower ratings could still get more mainstream attention and exposure.
I remember DS9 being shown on Spike, but it was kind of infrequent,-on and off, up one hour and back, and then it was off and Voyager took it's place.
I'm not sure, but it seems like Voyager ran for a longer time.
I agree with PKTreKGirl....DS9 was a lot less Sci-fi -more like a space soap opera. Probably translates less into mainstream acceptance-and reruns.
I have to admit, I enjoy watching some TNG reruns (which are all over cable) even though it can be considered "lame" by comparison.
I remember DS9 being shown on Spike, but it was kind of infrequent,-on and off, up one hour and back, and then it was off and Voyager took it's place.
I'm not sure, but it seems like Voyager ran for a longer time.
I agree with PKTreKGirl....DS9 was a lot less Sci-fi -more like a space soap opera. Probably translates less into mainstream acceptance-and reruns.
I have to admit, I enjoy watching some TNG reruns (which are all over cable) even though it can be considered "lame" by comparison.
How many topics do I have to say it in? Ratings for most shows fell over the mid-late '90s and into the '00s and it really affected syndication and the fringe networks first, then worked its way into the big 4 networks. It was not show specific, but across the board. New shows that were popular couldn't reach the highs of popular shows a few years before them. And TNG had a wider appeal than any Star Trek before or since. Setting the bar there is a bit unusual because it was such an exception. It was the most popular first-run syndicated show since Sea Hunt, which was in the era of 3 networks and maybe one independent station.
I have a graph like that, but your Voyager has an unusual gap in there and where's its high series premiere? I also have graphs for the top 3 shows in syndication for a few of the seasons during DS9's run and after a certain season, all 3 shows see their ratings fall and none of the newer shows ever reach the highs those shows experienced even in their lower seasons. A low cap got put in on syndication.
You post a graph, with ratings, and yet then dismiss ratings in the same post? Your graph (comment below) still shows DS9 was more popular than VOY. I never mentioned TNG. My statement still stands, unless you're trying to postulate some ratings are useless argument.
I have a graph like that, but your Voyager has an unusual gap in there and where's its high series premiere? I also have graphs for the top 3 shows in syndication for a few of the seasons during DS9's run and after a certain season, all 3 shows see their ratings fall and none of the newer shows ever reach the highs those shows experienced even in their lower seasons. A low cap got put in on syndication.
I wish I enjoyed them, still.
Personally, of all the modern Trek shows, TNG has aged the LEAST well, IMO. Mostly because of that preachy 80's PC "We are evolved - be like us!" mindset it had going on. That just makes me cringe, unfortunately. Well, that and the first couple of seasons has some of the most stilted writing ever witnessed in prime time. 
But there are selected episodes I still enjoy. I don't know...maybe about 20 or so.
I actually prefer Voyager, most of the time, to TNG. Especially the first 5 seasons of VOY.
But really, if I had my pick, I'd skip the rest of Trek outside of DS9 and TOS, and just go for Babylon 5, BSG, and Farscape.
I would also imagine DS9 did better in the ratings than Babylon 5, but I've never heard that mentioned.
I'm surprised that DS9 did better than VOY in the ratings, but rather glad of it as I feel it's the far superior show. I started with the show first-run, grew tired of Kira's whining and WGN's constant premptions of the show for sports programming and gave up. In retrospect, that was foolish of me and for me to concentrate my energies on VOY. DS9 grew better season by season and while I still LIKE VOY, I LOVE DS9 now that I've gone through several runs on DVD.
I started as a huge TOS fan first run (I'm 51) and immediately liked TNG despite its flaws in seasons 1 and 2. At the time it was my favorite show ever, except for TOS. However, on latter-day run-throughs, I quickly tire of it and have to go slowly, watching other films and programming On Demand, etc. before doing another brace of eps. I don't get that feeling with DS9 or TOS.
We're currently going through a run of ENT as a family and I find I'm really enjoying it even though I probably shouldn't, as the conventional wisdom goes. Previously we did VOY and there seems to be something missing, I can't just put my finger on it. It seems to have heart, but no soul if that makes sense. I sort of get the same feeling from TNG these days, although it's still enjoyable. TOS and DS9 are loaded with heart AND soul if you will.
I started as a huge TOS fan first run (I'm 51) and immediately liked TNG despite its flaws in seasons 1 and 2. At the time it was my favorite show ever, except for TOS. However, on latter-day run-throughs, I quickly tire of it and have to go slowly, watching other films and programming On Demand, etc. before doing another brace of eps. I don't get that feeling with DS9 or TOS.
We're currently going through a run of ENT as a family and I find I'm really enjoying it even though I probably shouldn't, as the conventional wisdom goes. Previously we did VOY and there seems to be something missing, I can't just put my finger on it. It seems to have heart, but no soul if that makes sense. I sort of get the same feeling from TNG these days, although it's still enjoyable. TOS and DS9 are loaded with heart AND soul if you will.
I wish I enjoyed them, still.
I agree too, TNG was a bit preachy-I think back then it came off as cool and futuristic, but now it seems----lame.
DS9 had more of an edge, it had to sacrifice some sci-fi for more drama, but it made for good viewing.
TNG had lighter subject matter-took less risks-you can see just by comparison.
But TNG has a stronger sci fi base.
I gradually started to enjoy them, frankly, because TNG is the only Trek on in reruns now, besides Enterprise.
TNG is on local channels, cable, - WGN, BBC, SY FY-it's like some renewed popularity with its reruns or something.
TNG probably got most of it's "preachiness" from TOS, but one thing I like about TOS is their brand of sci-fi was cerebral, the type that made you think.
One of my favorite episodes is where a computer thinks it's alive and perfect, and Kirk has to convince it that it isn't perfect, or it will destroy everything that it thinks isn't perfect like itself.
As a huge TNG fan, I often find myself wondering if my love for DS9 is worth dealing with fanatical Niners. Godwin's law has nothing on them. Invariably, any discussion concerning DS9 as a series will devolve into a TNG resent-fest.
What the hell does TNG have to do with DS9 except for giving it life and a huge audience lead-in?
What the hell does TNG have to do with DS9 except for giving it life and a huge audience lead-in?
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Unfortunately, many Star Trek fans, especially those online, have to LOVE one series and HATE 2 others. Usually they have to hate at least 1 in direct proximity to the series they love (e.g. TNG-DS9, DS9-VOY, VOY-ENT).
Unfortunately, many Star Trek fans, especially those online, have to LOVE one series and HATE 2 others. Usually they have to hate at least 1 in direct proximity to the series they love (e.g. TNG-DS9, DS9-VOY, VOY-ENT).
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