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Battlestar Galactica Movie Back On.

I was expecting an explanation too but the ending worked for me.

Yeah -- the reason it worked for me is because it made me realize we'd been getting an explanation all along, that the mystical and spiritual claims made by various characters were actually true. It's just that we were misled by the high-tech space-opera setting to expect a scientific explanation rather than a mystical one -- even though space-based supernatural fantasy has been seen before (e.g. Star Wars, C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, and essentially the original BSG, even though it was thinly veiled there as advanced aliens).
 
^ Yes, that is a good message. Don't think too much, just pay attention to what's actually in front of you.

I do wonder though if Moore intended to have Six be a chip in Baltar's head but changed his mind.
 
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If a godlike being with seemingly omnipotent powers shows up, calls itself "Q", and says that it's testing humanity, that's all well and good.

If a godlike being manipulates humanity behind the scenes and doesn't make an appearance to explain itself, heads explode.
 
That was not claimed within the show itself, as far as I recall. I think that's your own extrapolation. .

I think it was carefully constructed so that there was no 'one answer', and the only way to do that was to leave it open ended. If they'd definitively said: "The angels were the forerunner Cylons of the previous cycle." then there'd not be a lot of room for discussion about it. But for me the 'explanation' came about when they time-jumped forward into our own contemporary era- we were the Cylons, and the humans- the entire argument of 'us v. them' was moot all along (which is not only very Star Trekkian, but was also kind of the point of the whole last half-season of the show), because we're all hybrids. Since we know Cylons can manifest as wholly digital entities, if we (and, of course, the colonists, as we know from the 'scorched Earth' they found) are ourselves Cylons, then they can present themselves to us to guide our evolution and try and avert the same crisis that's been repeated who knows how many times (which is why all the religious texts of the colonies are based around that theme). Kara was basically their equivalent of Jesus (or Gandalf, if you will).

The problem with the 'well it's all just metaphysical' explanation is that it just punts the explanation up to the next rung. The forerunner explanation not only fits very neatly with a number of of the confusing things presented by the show (I've watch it twice- first in utter confusion and again in with this theory in mind, and it made a bunch of the seeming-mumbo-jumbo make total sense), but it's self-contained and doesn't require any hand-waving.

I think what happened is that RDM looked at the DNA of the original show, thought about how to present the 'Ships of Light' arc in his intepretation, and realized that for his show it would make more sense if that 'third faction' from the show was presented as a seemingly-spiritual entity. But there's far too much congruence and specificity in what is presented to say that it was 'magical hoodoo'. I think that's what's so clever about the story as presented- it works well on both a spiritual AND sci-fi level.
 
If a godlike being with seemingly omnipotent powers shows up, calls itself "Q", and says that it's testing humanity, that's all well and good.

If a godlike being manipulates humanity behind the scenes and doesn't make an appearance to explain itself, heads explode.
The former provably exists. The latter is simply an assumption that happens to fit the facts, but isn't necessarily the only explanation.
 
One is bullshit with a handwave explanation. The other is bullshit that maintains a sense of mystery.
 
I think it was carefully constructed so that there was no 'one answer', and the only way to do that was to leave it open ended. If they'd definitively said: "The angels were the forerunner Cylons of the previous cycle." then there'd not be a lot of room for discussion about it. But for me the 'explanation' came about when they time-jumped forward into our own contemporary era- we were the Cylons, and the humans- the entire argument of 'us v. them' was moot all along (which is not only very Star Trekkian, but was also kind of the point of the whole last half-season of the show), because we're all hybrids. Since we know Cylons can manifest as wholly digital entities, if we (and, of course, the colonists, as we know from the 'scorched Earth' they found) are ourselves Cylons, then they can present themselves to us to guide our evolution and try and avert the same crisis that's been repeated who knows how many times (which is why all the religious texts of the colonies are based around that theme). Kara was basically their equivalent of Jesus (or Gandalf, if you will).

But the point of the series is that we're the ones who broke the cycle. The reason all the earlier iterations of humans and Cylons destroyed themselves is because they never learned to work together and were incomplete without each other. It was only by merging into a single species -- us -- that they could transcend their fatal limitations and create an opportunity to break the cycle. We, uniquely among the iterations, are not doomed to repeat the apocalypse. We aren't guaranteed survival, we could still screw it up, but we do have a chance to avoid destruction and end the cycle forever, a chance that none of the others had.

That's another reason the finale made me like the series better. It makes it ultimately more optimistic. I never cared for its deeply cynical portrait of human nature, the way nearly everyone always made the worst and most selfish or cruel choices. But now I realize that what we were seeing was an incomplete humanity, a humanity that was more intrinsically flawed than we are. We're the outgrowth of the more positive, compassionate impulses that brought Helo and Sharon together and produced a hybrid race. We are the end goal that they strove for, the new form of humanity that can break the cycle and become something better. It makes the whole thing feel less cynical and misanthropic in retrospect, although I don't know if that would make it any more agreeable to sit through again.


The problem with the 'well it's all just metaphysical' explanation is that it just punts the explanation up to the next rung.

Only if you're thinking of it in terms of a science fiction narrative. If a story is overtly and intentionally a religious epic, then the existence of divinity is the explanation. Many characters in this show kept telling us over and over again that divinity, destiny, and prophecy were real, and they were consistently proven right. We just didn't accept it because we made the mistake of thinking this was a science fiction show instead of a magic-realist space-opera religious epic. The finale proved to me that there was never meant to be a scientific explanation, that all those mystical things threaded through the series all along were meant to be taken at face value.

Sure, in real life I agree with you -- just saying "God did it" isn't an explanation for anything, just a way to avoid asking further questions. But a lot of fiction takes the existence of supernatural forces for granted and manifests them as real and tangible. There's no scientific explanation for Aslan in The Chronicles of Narnia or Ares in Xena: Warrior Princess. They're just gods.

I think what happened is that RDM looked at the DNA of the original show, thought about how to present the 'Ships of Light' arc in his intepretation, and realized that for his show it would make more sense if that 'third faction' from the show was presented as a seemingly-spiritual entity.

There's nothing "seeming" about it. It was the real deal. Glen Larson was a Mormon who based the original series on his theology. But as I said, network execs were uncomfortable with overt portrayals of religion for fear of offending someone, so Larson had to pass off his divinities and devils as hyper-advanced aliens. Moore was under less censorship, so he was able to use religion more overtly. He would've had no reason to half-ass it by throwing in a handwave about advanced aliens -- and no desire to do so, because that would've been the Star Trek way of handling it and the entirety of BSG was Moore's aggressive repudiation of the limits he had to work under on Star Trek.


But there's far too much congruence and specificity in what is presented to say that it was 'magical hoodoo'.

See, there's your problem -- you're pre-emptively dismissing the idea of magic and mysticism as something inferior and invalid. In real life, I certainly agree, but in fiction, fantasy and magical realism are as valid as any other genre. In a fantasy or supernatural story, magic or divinity can be portrayed with great specificity and consistency, because in such a universe, it is entirely real. The characters in BSG were quite specific that God, angels, prophecies, and destiny did exist, and the evidence consistently supported that premise and refuted attempts to debunk it.
 
I like the idea of the creation of us as hybrids breaking the cycle, but I had thought that the end with all of the robots being developed in the modern day was meant to show that we were heading towards our cycle's equivalent of the rise of the Cylons and the war between robots and humans.
I think it was carefully constructed so that there was no 'one answer', and the only way to do that was to leave it open ended. If they'd definitively said: "The angels were the forerunner Cylons of the previous cycle." then there'd not be a lot of room for discussion about it. But for me the 'explanation' came about when they time-jumped forward into our own contemporary era- we were the Cylons, and the humans- the entire argument of 'us v. them' was moot all along (which is not only very Star Trekkian, but was also kind of the point of the whole last half-season of the show), because we're all hybrids. Since we know Cylons can manifest as wholly digital entities, if we (and, of course, the colonists, as we know from the 'scorched Earth' they found) are ourselves Cylons, then they can present themselves to us to guide our evolution and try and avert the same crisis that's been repeated who knows how many times (which is why all the religious texts of the colonies are based around that theme). Kara was basically their equivalent of Jesus (or Gandalf, if you will).

The problem with the 'well it's all just metaphysical' explanation is that it just punts the explanation up to the next rung. The forerunner explanation not only fits very neatly with a number of of the confusing things presented by the show (I've watch it twice- first in utter confusion and again in with this theory in mind, and it made a bunch of the seeming-mumbo-jumbo make total sense), but it's self-contained and doesn't require any hand-waving.

I think what happened is that RDM looked at the DNA of the original show, thought about how to present the 'Ships of Light' arc in his intepretation, and realized that for his show it would make more sense if that 'third faction' from the show was presented as a seemingly-spiritual entity. But there's far too much congruence and specificity in what is presented to say that it was 'magical hoodoo'. I think that's what's so clever about the story as presented- it works well on both a spiritual AND sci-fi level.
I like your idea here too, but I don't remember there being anything that showed that God and the Messengers were ever anything other than what they appeared to be.
 
I like the idea of the creation of us as hybrids breaking the cycle, but I had thought that the end with all of the robots being developed in the modern day was meant to show that we were heading towards our cycle's equivalent of the rise of the Cylons and the war between robots and humans.

It was meant to show that we could be, that we were approaching the point in our history when we would have the choice to either perpetuate the same cycle and bring about the destruction of our species, or finally rise above the cycle and avoid destruction. So basically it was like they were turning to us and saying, "Okay, guys, it's up to you now -- what will you choose when the time comes?" With the optimism coming from the idea that our iteration of humanity, for the first time, had the capacity to break the cycle -- but tempered with the realistic understanding that it won't happen unless we choose to rise to the occasion. For all that Moore approached BSG as the anti-Trek, in this respect he was using a very Trekkish (and Babylon 5-ish) form of optimism: The idea that we can make things better, but only if we work hard enough and avoid the most dangerous mistakes. That a better future is possible but not inevitable, and that it depends on us being the best we can be and defeating the weaknesses within us.
 
Thank you for the explanation. I like that, and it definitely makes it a much more positive ending.
 
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I know nuBSG's use of the slang term "skin-job" was inspired by Blade Runner, but didn't EJO once say that they actually share a universe?
 
It was meant to show that we could be, that we were approaching the point in our history when we would have the choice to either perpetuate the same cycle and bring about the destruction of our species, or finally rise above the cycle and avoid destruction. So basically it was like they were turning to us and saying, "Okay, guys, it's up to you now -- what will you choose when the time comes?" With the optimism coming from the idea that our iteration of humanity, for the first time, had the capacity to break the cycle -- but tempered with the realistic understanding that it won't happen unless we choose to rise to the occasion. For all that Moore approached BSG as the anti-Trek, in this respect he was using a very Trekkish (and Babylon 5-ish) form of optimism: The idea that we can make things better, but only if we work hard enough and avoid the most dangerous mistakes. That a better future is possible but not inevitable, and that it depends on us being the best we can be and defeating the weaknesses within us.

I think the ending is a little more obscure than that and is meant to be optimistic or pessimistic depending on your point of view or interpretation.

Here is a link to a page that quotes the final dialogue between Baltar and Six:
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/battle...14/what-the-frack-was-bsgs-final-scene-about/

Also, we never really discuss All Along the Watchtower, which itself, is about the repeating of a cycle and it leaves up to interpretation whether the cycle will repeat itself again--it plays with time in much the same way BSG does.
 
I know nuBSG's use of the slang term "skin-job" was inspired by Blade Runner, but didn't EJO once say that they actually share a universe?
Well, kinda-sorta. There was never any canonical link between the two, but IIRC, he came up with a treatment for a movie or miniseries that centered on the fact that his Blade Runner character Gav was actually a descendant of Adama, who was going to fight against a Repicant/Cylon uprising against humanity on Earth. It would only be tangentially related to NuBSG like Caprica was - another property that was not initially created to exist in that universe, but shoehorned into it after the fact by the show runners. And we all remember how that worked out.

I probably have some of the details wrong, but I think that was the general gist of it.
 
I think Jean-Pierre Dorleac's uniform designs for the original BSG still hold up pretty well. The jackets with all the buckles that were never buckled were a little odd (they did buckle them sometimes on Galactica 1980, which had a different costuming staff, and it just didn't look that good), but I don't think their look is particularly dated. (Now, the hair, on the other hand...)

I've never much cared for the Wrath of Khan uniforms.
People tend to trash the ST:TMP uniforms, but I think they look far more believable as practical, utilitarian wear, with a wide range of different variations for different needs

I also loved Dorleac's take--and the heavy blaster pistols
In Trek, the ST II should have been for command/Marines--the ST:TMP for ground bases, Voyagers for space station use--and TNG for ships of exploration.

Jeremy Irons would have made one hell (pun intended) of a nu-Iblis.

Agreed. I want to see a new City Of Light ship. Perfect for CGI--and full of spires

It was only by merging into a single species -- us -- that they could transcend their fatal limitations

That's another reason the finale made me like the series better. It makes it ultimately more optimistic. I never cared for its deeply cynical portrait of human nature, .

For awhile, if was fashionable to make sci-fi un-trek like. Post-apocalyptic movies were all the rage, and there was this ad for LEXX that lets us know that characters weren't going to crap marble. While optimistic in a way--you had that scene on the bridge where humans and all the cylons could have made peace--but it was a little to ST: TNG to do it that way, so Ron and company just left us with images of ASIMO and other human like bots warning us.
 
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Yeah, the original intent was that the TNG uniforms were for ships and the DS9 uniforms were for space stations, and indeed DS9 did adhere to this somewhat faithfully. Aside from the Defiant crew, every other Starfleet ship we see on DS9 the crew wear the TNG uniforms until the switch to gray. In fact, in Homestead we see Sisko change to the TNG uniform once he leaves the station.

It's only Generations and Voyager we see the DS9 uniform being used on ships. This stems from Generations originally going to feature new uniforms, which would have been worn on Voyager. But then those uniforms were abandoned, resulting in a combination of the two uniforms being worn on the Enterprise D in Generations and Voyager wore the DS9 uniforms since it was felt those looked better on the cast than the TNG ones.
 
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