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Batman

Umm, where did you read that it was George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh who convinced Warner Bros to hire Christopher Nolan? I've never read that before.

What is common knowledge is that since Nolan had done Insomnia for the studio, when they were looking for a new director for Batman they knocked on Nolan's door, and he was at that time interested in the offer. I've never heard anywhere where it was Clooney & Soderbergh that "convinced" Warner Bros to hire Nolan.

Link?
Straight from the horse's mouth:

link - http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/17/business/clooney.php

Clooney and Soderbergh have shown a knack for promoting some of the most creative minds in Hollywood. Chris Nolan, who previously directed the thriller "Memento," was hired to direct "Insomnia," starring Robin Williams and Al Pacino. It was a hit in 2002, earning $67 million at the U.S. box office. Nolan is now directing Warner's big-budget spectacle "Batman Begins."While "Welcome to Collinwood" was a financial bust, the directors and writers, Anthony and Joe Russo, went on to direct the Fox television standout, "Arrested Development."

And, for future reference, do please credit me as the person who found this information instead of telling your friends that it was you.

I think you're reading a bit too much into things, bub. Where does it say -- as you originally said -- that George Clooney & Steven Soderbergh "convinced" Warner Bros to hire Chris Nolan for Batman Begins?

This is as closest I got to a reference:

Clooney and Soderbergh have shown a knack for promoting some of the most creative minds in Hollywood. Chris Nolan, who previously directed the thriller "Memento," was hired to direct "Insomnia," starring Robin Williams and Al Pacino. It was a hit in 2002, earning $67 million at the U.S. box office. Nolan is now directing Warner's big-budget spectacle "Batman Begins."While "Welcome to Collinwood" was a financial bust, the directors and writers, Anthony and Joe Russo, went on to direct the Fox television standout, "Arrested Development."

Nowhere does it say or even allude that Clooney & Soderbergh "convinced" Warner Bros to hire Nolan. I think you're just taking bits and pieces of information and putting together your own best educated guess. If anything, all I get from that is Clooney & Soderbergh possibly helping to secure Nolan to direct Insomnia, not Batman Begins. The way that article reads it seems the success of Insomnia is what propelled Nolan to be in consideration to direct Batman. It was merely a coincidence that Clooney & Soderbergh happened to be producing.

And no, I won't be passing along this information to my friends because there's very little -- if any -- validity to it.
 
^^^

You only confirmed what I said originally.

Re-read my original post above right here, very carefully:


It was George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh who produced the 2002 American film adaptation of Insomnia (originally a 1997 Swedish film) for Warner Bros and convinced the studio to hire Christopher Nolan as its director, being fans of his 2000 film Memento.

Thus, helping to establish Christopher Nolan as the front-runner to direct Batman Begins.

For that, George Clooney atoned himself for all of his involvement with Batman & Robin. He may have actually contributed in saving it. :cool:
 
Ah. I misread. Well, I guess you could possibly conclude that Clooney & Soderbergh helped Nolan secure Insomnia but that still seems like a bit of a stretch. Nowhere does it say that they secured Nolan the job because they liked Memento. It still seems like you were taking bits and pieces and trying to cobble together something that may or may not be true.

Regardless, I'm not going to be thanking George Clooney for Batman Begins. Not even a little.
 
Let's try this again, Jackson, with helpful bolded text.

It was George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh who produced the 2002 American film adaptation of Insomnia (originally a 1997 Swedish film) for Warner Bros and convinced the studio to hire Christopher Nolan as [Insomnia's] director, being fans of his 2000 film Memento.

Thus, helping to establish Christopher Nolan as the front-runner to direct Batman Begins.

For that, George Clooney atoned himself for all of his involvement with Batman & Robin. He may have actually contributed in saving it. :cool:

Edit: Okay, you got it. :)
 
Really? You don't think making a previously successful, moody thriller for Warner Brothers had a hand in him being their choice for Batman Begins?

What is it, a coincidence?
 
Really? You don't think making a previously successful, moody thriller for Warner Brothers had a hand in him being their choice for Batman Begins?

What is it, a coincidence?

I still don't see where it says that Clooney & Soderbergh flat-out secured Nolan to direct Insomnia because they were fans of Memento. The article reads that they may have helped the film get off the ground (and of course with those two attached, I'm sure they could get any film off the ground). However it doesn't say that they were fans of Nolan, or that they "convinced" the studio to hire him for Insomnia. That's where it seems like a bit of a stretch, to me, but hey, that might have been the case. Who knows.

Christopher Nolan was also writing a Howard Hughes biopic for Warner Bros also around that time, so maybe it was that in which gave Warner Bros the idea to look at Nolan. I'm not denying the significance of directing Insomnia for the studio, though, either. I think that definitely played a role. I'm not disputing that. I just don't think Clooney & Soderbergh had such a hand in getting Nolan the director's position for Insomnia as hinted at.

And to "possibly, maybe, perhaps one day" think that it was George Clooney who helped position Nolan to where he was a front runner to direct Batman Begins, I also think is a bit of a stretch.
 
Really? You don't think making a previously successful, moody thriller for Warner Brothers had a hand in him being their choice for Batman Begins?

What is it, a coincidence?

I still don't see where it says that Clooney & Soderbergh flat-out secured Nolan to direct Insomnia because they were fans of Memento. The article reads that they may have helped the film get off the ground (and of course with those two attached, I'm sure they could get any film off the ground). However it doesn't say that they were fans of Nolan, or that they "convinced" the studio to hire him for Insomnia. That's where it seems like a bit of a stretch, to me, but hey, that might have been the case. Who knows.

.


I don't know if that's true about them being fans but I'm sure they had a hand in picking Nolan for the director's chair. I mean they did produce the movie right? Even if he was writing a pic for Warners then he might have been on the studios list of prospective directors for Insomnia but it's more than likely that Clooney and Soderbergh made the final decision on who was going to produce the flick for them.

I admit I don't see what relevence the claim of their being "fans" of Nolan has to whether or not they hired him. You seem to be attacking this little unconfirmed fact like it's something more important than it is. I mean it's just an unwarranted unsumption not a slur on Nolan's name. Besides isn't it likely that Clooney saw Memento before he hired Nolan? Isn't it even more likely that he liked what he saw? He doesn't have to be a fan to be a judge of quality.
 
Really? You don't think making a previously successful, moody thriller for Warner Brothers had a hand in him being their choice for Batman Begins?

What is it, a coincidence?

I still don't see where it says that Clooney & Soderbergh flat-out secured Nolan to direct Insomnia because they were fans of Memento. The article reads that they may have helped the film get off the ground (and of course with those two attached, I'm sure they could get any film off the ground). However it doesn't say that they were fans of Nolan, or that they "convinced" the studio to hire him for Insomnia. That's where it seems like a bit of a stretch, to me, but hey, that might have been the case. Who knows.

.


I don't know if that's true about them being fans but I'm sure they had a hand in picking Nolan for the director's chair. I mean they did produce the movie right? Even if he was writing a pic for Warners then he might have been on the studios list of prospective directors for Insomnia but it's more than likely that Clooney and Soderbergh made the final decision on who was going to produce the flick for them.

I admit I don't see what relevence the claim of their being "fans" of Nolan has to whether or not they hired him. You seem to be attacking this little unconfirmed fact like it's something more important than it is. I mean it's just an unwarranted unsumption not a slur on Nolan's name. Besides isn't it likely that Clooney saw Memento before he hired Nolan? Isn't it even more likely that he liked what he saw? He doesn't have to be a fan to be a judge of quality.

I'm not attacking. I'm just confused as to the inference that because they may have helped secure Nolan direct the film makes them fans. It's certainly possible it just seemed like a lot of assumption and making things up.
 
I agree with you. It was an assumption but I don't think he was "making things up". Why would he want everyone to think Clooney was a fan of Chris Nolan's? I could understand if he were to say that Chris Nolan was Jonathan Frake's biggest fan, he has a vested interest in Frakes but Clooney? ;) I don't see it.
 
Guys, seriously...he was making a facetious joke about Clooney atoning for B&R. No more, no less.
 
JA:

The fact of the matter is, Nolan directed only 2 major motion pictures before he was hired for Insomnia. I personally never saw Nolan's first film Following (1998) but I definitely saw his second film Memento (2000) and consider it a work of genius like many people who have seen that superb film; but wouldn't it be conceivable that both Clooney and Soderberg also caught that film, loved it, and thought that Nolan was the right director for the job for Insomnia?

If we ordinary filmgoers can recognize the creative genius behind Nolan's Memento, wouldn't these 2 industry professionals recognize that same creative genius as well?

I have no conclusive scientific proof here, but based on logic and the information that we have gathered so far, this appears most likely to be the case.

And, no, Clooney did not have a direct hand in rejuvenating the Batman franchise in 2005, but I am glad that he brought Nolan to the attention of Warner Bros executives. :cool:
 
Tim Burton's Batman (1989) and Batman Returns, and Batman - Mask Of The Phantasm and Batman & Mr Freeze - Subzero are the best Batman movies. Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are good, but Bale's Batman is not nearly as good as Michael Keaton's or Kevin Conroy's. Also Mark Hamill's Joker is the best. Nolan's Gatham City looks like your average big city, and that really is not escapism. People saying Batman Returns was too dark.....that si so retarded.....he is the dark knight, no f*ck it is a dark movie......Batman Returns is excellent. The Gotham City in Burton's Batman films is very different than the average city, it is something unique and shows escapism, the gotham city in Batman (1989) and the one in winter in Batman Returns are so cool and artistic
 
I love Batman Returns while Batman Begins, MotP, TDK and B66 are OK. The rest were pretty bad, aside from the look and music of B89. B&R had some OK stuff-Clooney as Bruce, some of Arnold's comic relief, and most of Thurman's acting (Poison Ivy still is, usually, a somewhat comical villain, so that interpretation wasn't too far off).
 
Clooney sucked as the Dark Knight.
I do not place blame on Clooney that belongs to Schumacher.

I loved the 1960s Batman movie growing up and still have a nostalgic soft spot for it. Classic camp.

Burton's 1st Batman movie was great as was Jack Nicolson's Joker portral.
His second effort in the series was ruined by the way he had the Penguin set up and portrayed. He was called the Penguin because he wore tuxedos not because he had flippers and was raised by penguins in the sewers of Gotham City.

All the other live action Batman films up until Batman Begins were horrible. Especially the last Schumacher effort.

Begins, and Dark Knight are both fantastic.
 
Just remember - you asked for this.


Batman (1966)
The tremendously popular Batman television series swung over to the big screen and spawned a cult classic. Honestly, though, like many a cult classic, this flick is only entertaining in moments. If you haven't ever seen the Bat-shark repellent scene, you have missed out. But that scene is often featured on specials as a clip, and it's better to see it that way than suffer through what is ultimately a relatively uninteresting movie over-stuffed with villains who all seem to be trying to out do each other mugging at the camera. Even the series' renowned camp humor is a stretched a little thin for a feature length story.

Batman (1989)
The modern Bat-films, of course, started in 1989 with Tim Burton's Batman. Visually sumptuous with Burton's signature cartoon/Gothic charm, the film's casting was a bit of a head-scratcher back in the day. Michael Keaton hardly fit the comic book's vision of Bruce Wayne as a strapping genius with extraordinary physical prowess. And, in fact, that wasn't what Burton was going for at all. The thing to remember when viewing this movie is that it is an original interpretation of Batman, influenced by comic book visuals, but essentially it's own animal, and that animal is more akin to Burton's other work than it is to the tradition of the Dark Knight Batman. Like most Burton movies, it is quirky and entertaining.

One major strength of the movie is Keaton's oddball performance. He is bizarrely sweet and even sexy as a Bruce Wayne so on the edge that he appears distracted in his everyday life, finding power and dark transformation through the batsuit. He provides the movie with a solid center that evokes identification and empathy from the audience. One major weakness of the movie is Jack Nicholson's hammy Joker, which achieves only in four or five moments any sense of the character as the character. Mostly what's up on screen is Jack Nicholson ACTING, yes, in capital letters, and it interferes with one's ability to suspend disbelief. Worse even than the Joker is Kim Basinger as an inexplicable (and annoyingly screamy) love interest so unlikely that Alfred has to act completely out of character to make the love story work. Many fans strongly object to some liberties taken with Batman's origin, though the story within the film has a decent amount of dramatic resonance. More of a problem is that this Batman doesn't seem to mind blowing people up.

Atmospheric on the one hand, oddly stiff on the other, Batman '89 has genuine humor and some classic moments, but many feel it has not aged well. It is absolutely worth seeing, and probably should be seen by anyone who fancies themselves a batfan. But for those weaned on the Christopher Nolan movies, this will probably strike you as somewhat cartoony.

Batman Returns (1992)
Tim Burton helms a second movie, and like his first outing - this movie is strange. It starts off pretty interesting, but slowly unravels into sheer incoherence. The plot makes little sense and mostly flies on sheer bravura. The Batman who blithely dropped bombs in buildings full of people now grins sadistically as he straps a bomb into a bad guy's belt - it's a little disconcerting. Danny DeVito's Penguin is rather sickly fascinating, again for the first half of the movie, and then he just becomes sick. Christopher Walken as a Big Bad with minimal motive still manages to be entertaining, but mostly you just don't care since he's little more than a cardboard cutout.

Sounds like I hate this movie, right? But I don't. Once again, Keaton's charming turn as a somewhat less befuddled Bruce Wayne combined with a knockout performance by Michelle Pfeiffer as an alternately befuddled and kickass Selina Kyle manages to save this movie from itself. Despite rocket-wielding penguins (that is, actual flightless waterfowl with tiny rocket-launchers strapped to their backs in what may be the most painful three minutes on film since the "Can You Read My Mind" sequence in Superman: The Movie) and a villain who is supposed to appear frightening when arriving in a giant rubber ducky that moves slower than your grandma driving a Buick, Batman Returns has at its core a scorching, if off-the-wall, chemistry between the two romantic leads. It's worth watching for that and that alone.

Batman Forever (1995)
After some massive uproar from parents who took their kids to see Batman Returns completely not expecting a drooling deformed villain, Warner Bros. turned the franchise over to Joel Schumacher with an order to lighten things up. He delivers with an entertaining, if relatively fluffy, piece that once again tends to give more screentime to the villains than our stalwart hero. It also returns to a stock love interest who makes no sense, and manages to shoehorn Robin in there as well, though as a teenager to circumvent those pesky child endangerment issues. Val Kilmer phones in a performance as Bruce Wayne, but Jim Carrey as a plainly homoerotic Edward Nygma (the Riddler) is fun. Tommy Lee Jones' Two-Face is useless. You could see it, you could skip it - it won't really matter.

Batman: Mask of the Phantasm (1993 - animated)
Yeah, I know they're listed out of order. Most people missed Mask of the Phantasm during its original theatrical run, and it gained its reputation in circulation on video and DVD. A spin off of The Animated Series, this is actually one of the best Batman movies ever made. Before the Chris Nolan movies, it was by far the most faithful to the Dark Knight interpretation of Batman from the comics. Dear to my heart, it has a real film noir flair, combining a gangster story, a tragic love story and a somewaht weak, but still fun Joker story. Like most Batman stories, there's little justification for why Bruce Wayne would fall in love with Andrea Beaumont, but the love story itself isn't bad, and there's real character exploration of Bruce Wayne, something the live action movies didn't achieve until Batman Begins. Definitely recommended.

Batman & Robin (1997)
The sheer amount of fanboy angst wasted on this movie makes it worth seeing. No, not really. It's bad. I mean, make-your-stomach-ache bad. Yet, even this flick manages a touching subplot that explores the relationship between Bruce and Alfred. But that takes up perhaps five minutes of screentime in two hours, and the character points are fairly standard - you're better off reading some good fanfic. This one tiny bit of real emotion certainly doesn't make up for the hideous, cringe-inducing one-liners delivered with scenery-chewing conviction from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Uma Thurman, two stars who are happy to overact for a nice fat paycheck. Avoid if at all possible.

Batman Begins (2005)
When big budget superhero movies began (counting that from Superman: The Movie in 1979), they gleaned to a late 70s Silver Age sensibility. They were slightly tongue-in-cheek and fairly cartoonish, even while they had some level of sexuality and violence. They always ended with a clear sense of how the good guy had defeated the bad guy. Even smaller, darker pics like The Crow and Blade which both involved the hero dicing up villains, were fairly straight-up depictions of clearly good (if sometimes tortured) heroes overcoming truly nefarious evil men. For all that Tim Burton's depiction of Batman was considered dark in its day, it had an intense artificiality to it that kept it firmly in the realm of cartoons. Schumacher's camp sensibility returned to the days of the Batman tv show where everything was wink-wink at the audience. Both sets of films had big red flags waving on the screen - this is pure fantasy wish fulfillment silliness. Enjoy!

Batman Begins actually falls into this category of superhero films as well. There's little ambiguity to the hero, other than Bruce Wayne's early desire to murder his parents' killer, and the movie ends on an upbeat note with redemption and purpose found through his vigilante activities, despite their clear unlawfulness. What's new and different about this movie is the time and care it takes to explore who exactly Bruce Wayne is, and how he got around to making such a bizarre choice as to dress up like a bat to fight crime. This is not a story about "wonderful toys", or bizarre goons, or strutting about in fetishistic outfits like a drag queen out for a night of rollicking fun. It is a character study - a character study about a man who does something quite impossible, so still fantasy without a doubt, but a serious character study nonetheless.

In the comics Bruce Wayne's motivations are routinely reduced to anger and/or guilt over his parents' murders. One of the most significant things Batman Begins does is to make the murder of the Waynes merely one building block in the edifice of Batman's creation. I was once discussing superheroes with someone who has been involved in the production of more than one major superhero blockbuster, and she just shook her head at the mention of Batman. "Why should I, or anyone, care about some rich guy acting out his personal pain by buying a bunch of toys and beating the crap out of criminals? He's just not relatable." It's a fair criticism, one that Sam Hamm, writer of the 1989 film Batman agreed with. In his introduction to his graphic novel Batman: Blind Justice, Hamm says when he was invited to write that story, he sat down and contemplated Bruce Wayne's motivations. He eventually came to the inescapable conclusion that Bruce was a spoiled rich man who irresponsibly uses his power to selfishly make himself feel better through violence. Not a flattering portrait.

Where Batman Begins triumphs is that it takes this question head on and makes of it the very core of Bruce's journey. His oldest friend, Rachel Dawes, tells him flatly the difference between justice and revenge - and the difference is selfishness. Then, in what has to be my favorite scene in the movie, a criminal looks Bruce in the face and taunts him about his mopey self-indulgence. And in a brand new moment in the Batman story, Bruce throws away his money so that he can taste desperate. It places him in a completely new orientation to heroism. While previous stories in the comics have Bruce traveling the world and suffering hardship in order to train his mind and body, none have ever assigned it this reasoning before, and it is this, finally, of which a truly compelling character is made. Bruce's journey from pained rich boy to angry seeker to driven vigilante focuses this movie on character more so than any superhero movie yet made. Christian Bale's performance is earnest and committed, evoking both the broken child deep within the character, and the fierce warrior that he becomes. It is also surprisingly dotted with a warm humor that has long been missing from the character of Bruce Wayne in the comics.

Nolan and David Goyer, the screenwriter, introduce some delightful new elements, most notably the reworking of the character of Lucius Fox. Played with impish delight by Morgan Freeman, Fox doesn't seem fooled by Bruce for even a moment, and yet his motivations for going along remain intriguingly obscure. The inspired casting of Gary Oldman, who positively channels the human, heroic Jim Gordon of Batman: Year One, and Michael Caine, who brings a loose familiarity never before seen to Alfred Pennyworth, adds solidity to Batman's support system.

Batman Begins also does something relatively unheard of in Batman movies as well as just about every other medium - it creates a love interest who is believable. Most superhero stories are written by guys who are mostly concerned with producing a wish-fulfillment fantasy of being a badass, who maybe gets a little tail in the end. Thus, most superhero love stories boil down to "he fell in love with her because she was really hot". But even a cursory analysis makes it plain that Bruce Wayne is a particularly difficult character to write a convincing love story for (as readers of fan fiction know all too well). This is a man whose looks and money mean he can have any woman he wants, but he apparently sublimates most of his sexual energy into crime-fighting, and works all night every night. He desperately fears happiness, and particularly romantic love, for it equals death in his mind, and his survivor's guilt probably makes him feel it's a betrayal of his parents to actually find happiness. Rachel Dawes, however, is able to represent justice and goodness to Bruce, as well as an innocent time from before his life was ripped apart. She is dedicated to fighting crime, she's smart, and she'll stand up to him without hesitation. It makes absolute perfect sense that he would love her, and desire her approval. It also makes perfect sense that she would reject him, at least for the time being. Her lovely line, "The man I loved, the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there somewhere..." both outlines the deep changes wrought in Bruce over the course of the movie, and again add an entirely new element to the Batman mythos. This Bruce Wayne thinks Batman is merely a temporary measure, not a lifelong commitment. That was a brilliant innovation for the telling of Batman's story when you only have two or three installments to do it in. It adds a level of inner conflict that plays out with harsh consequences later o.

The final innovation of Batman Begins is the rescuing of a villain. In the comics, Ra's al Ghul is sort of a bad Bond villain knock off. Nolan and Goyer merge Ra's to Henri Ducard, a mercenary Bruce trained under until he found out Ducard was an assassin for hire. They also give Ra's a new motivation - to restore balance to a corrupt world by periodically destroying the world's greatest city when it reaches the pinnacle of decadence. Many found this a tad convoluted. I adore it. It allows the focus of the final struggle to be Gotham, which is exactly as it should be. It is the city that Bruce loves and protects, and it is the city that any villain must want to destroy. Liam Neeson plays the father-figure mentor and corrupt villain with equal control, bringing Bruce's struggle to a close when he has to "destroy the evil father", who represents revenge, in order to find the light within and dedicate himself to justice.

Despite a clumsily cut climatic sequence, Batman Begins is not only a triumph of storytelling, but one of style as well. As far removed from Burton's and Schumacher's sound-stage constructed Gothams as it is possible to be, this movie places the city in the world, a statement made explicit by the bird's eye shot from the plane provided as Bruce returns home. The cool blue, gray and sepia-toned lighting of the cinematography is beautiful, but it also conveys a decidedly noir flavor of urban starkness. While much fan angst has been spilt over the quick cut, up close fight scenes, they convey a sense of speed, power and mystery that are exactly what an attack by Batman should feel like. The movie is well-paced, with compelling villains, and a more compelling hero. It is one of the best superhero movies ever made, and one of the best Batman stories ever told.

I'll spare you my even longer look at TDK - at least for the moment...
 
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You know, if you want to stop Good Will Riker's latest mindless tirade, just tell him that Clooney and Soderberg both have Breakfast at Tiffany's in their DVD collections. Then he'll suddenly hate The Dark Knight because of that. :lol:
 
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