Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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It's far from a poor film in my eyes. In fact, for all of its flaws, I would happily say it is the most complete comic book Origin Story put to screen so far - or at least on par with Reeves' Superman, sans Williams' score.
It does a huge amount of structural and story heavy lifting with effortless ease, builds a pretty strong villain whilst never detracting from Bruce as he grows into The Bat. It lays down a lot of themes and ideas that are picked up in later films and has a very strong cast that (barring Rachel) all become strong signature modern takes on their characters. As much as I prefer TDK as a piece of film making, I actually enjoy BB more and find it eminently rewatchable. It also has my favourite cheesy-but-brilliant line at the end, followed by Zimmer's crashing score over the credits.
People don't like it? Not surprising I guess. People don't like LA Confidential, Purple Rain and Jackson Pollock too. All differing shades to this wierd and crazy world.
Hugo - And you never will
It does a huge amount of structural and story heavy lifting with effortless ease, builds a pretty strong villain whilst never detracting from Bruce as he grows into The Bat. It lays down a lot of themes and ideas that are picked up in later films and has a very strong cast that (barring Rachel) all become strong signature modern takes on their characters. As much as I prefer TDK as a piece of film making, I actually enjoy BB more and find it eminently rewatchable. It also has my favourite cheesy-but-brilliant line at the end, followed by Zimmer's crashing score over the credits.
People don't like it? Not surprising I guess. People don't like LA Confidential, Purple Rain and Jackson Pollock too. All differing shades to this wierd and crazy world.
Hugo - And you never will
Nah, there are a few of us who aren't overly enamored with it. It's got a great look to it and some cool sequences, but as a Batman origin story it feels strangely dull and by the numbers to me, and doesn't do anything remotely unexpected with the idea. And it also over-explains everything so much that it removes every bit of mystery and mythic grandeur the character once had (and which made the Burton Batman so memorable), and reduces him to just a rich guy running around the city in some special ops tactical gear.
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Yeah, theenglish got it right, and just to be clear, I'm not bothered by it at all. I think there is plenty of space for multiple versions of the character.Ah, yes. I see what you mean now. Well, good thing I agree with that aswell.
Batman Begins is one of those films whose reputation was retroactively changed to positive with regards to public opinion. Audience response at the time was "it was ok", but people were still using Burton's Batman as the gold standard. Then TDK came out and the comparisons to Burton had stopped, and TDK was the new king. And then TDKRises came out and people were disenchanted with Nolan's finale to his trilogy. It was around that time (2012) that people reappraised Batman Begins for being one of the two good Batman films Nolan had done. As time goes on, I don't think TDKRises' reputation has gotten better. You see a similar phenomenon with MOS, post BvS and SS. MOS is now "the good" DC film; whose model WB should've followed in building their shared universe like Marvel. Also TASM 1 got a similar reappraisal post TASM 2 and Sony cancelling it's Spider-Man shared universe.
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when BB came out, I wasn't expecting it to be any good. The trailers looked boring and I was dreading being forced to sit through a protracted origin story. I was very pleasantly surprised to find the first half of the movie masterfully done and completely engrossing. If anything, it got boring when he became Batman, which I never thought I would say. It was really amazing and revolutionary to see a dark, earnest, "real world" comic book movie at that time. Something that could have actually taken place in reality.
Batman driving over the rooftops of Chicago was pretty good at shattering the "real world" thing everybody seems to keep bringing up, among other over the top moments.
There also was very little pressure on those water pipes Crane's goons poured that fear poison in.
But I still love the movie.
But I still love the movie.
I saw this film recently. I think it was a middle of the road superhero flick but I wasn't overwhelmed by the acting nor the casting.
Afleck isn't given much good dialogue. And he doesn't defy his reputation as a pedestrian actor with the dialogue he does get. Cavill's performance is only adequate as is Adams'. Jeremy Irons' Alfred is not much of tempering influence on Batman which is kind of supposed to be the role of that character.
Eisenberg as Lex looked horrible, horrible in the trailer. But I think he's better in the film itself. I'd still prefer an older actor portraying a more seasoned man than the techie wonderkind we do get here. He also has this twitchy style and it's occasionally hard for me to pick up on what he's saying.
I think the biggest thing about this film for me are the various antagonists's grievances they have with each other just aren't that deep enough to merit the intensity of their conflict. That's why this film didn't fully gel with me.
Afleck isn't given much good dialogue. And he doesn't defy his reputation as a pedestrian actor with the dialogue he does get. Cavill's performance is only adequate as is Adams'. Jeremy Irons' Alfred is not much of tempering influence on Batman which is kind of supposed to be the role of that character.
Eisenberg as Lex looked horrible, horrible in the trailer. But I think he's better in the film itself. I'd still prefer an older actor portraying a more seasoned man than the techie wonderkind we do get here. He also has this twitchy style and it's occasionally hard for me to pick up on what he's saying.
I think the biggest thing about this film for me are the various antagonists's grievances they have with each other just aren't that deep enough to merit the intensity of their conflict. That's why this film didn't fully gel with me.
That's Nolan for me in general.
Batman Begins was the first Batman film to truly get Batman right in live-action, as Roger Ebert states in his review. It's actually my favorite of the Dark Knight Trilogy, if anything because it's the first time where Bruce Wayne is a main character in his own movie and it's very much a psychological piece about Bruce Wayne/Batman. The Narrows is also one of the best visual representations of Gotham that I've seen (besides Anton Furst's Gotham in the Burton movies) and it's just a terrific film all across the board.
The Dark Knight is still the best Batman film, hands down. I re-watched the film recently with an audience on the big screen and I am amazed 8 years later how much that film still works. It helps that it has a crackerjack of a screenplay and Heath Ledger's performance, but damn that film is solid from beginning to end. I forgot how tightly structured the first act is and the film's climax is surprisingly restrained given modern superhero films. It's really one of the best superhero films ever.
As for the argument that Batman v Superman is more singular in its vision and more cohesive than The Dark Knight Rises... I'm not sure if I can agree with that at all. The Theatrical Cut of Batman v Superman is really a mess of a film and while the tone is consistent, the plotting, characterization and editing is all over the place. The first thirty minutes of the film has some of the worst pacing & editing that I've seen in any recent summer blockbuster or mainstream film.
Now, if we're talking about the Ultimate Edition... that's a different story. However, I much prefer Nolan's Batman than Snyder's Batman, but that's just my own admittedly biased and personal take. I'd rather sit through Rises than the Theatrical Cut of BvS any day of the week, but the Ultimate Edition is worth sitting through. The problem is, its 3 hour run-time makes that somewhat difficult, whereas I have no problem sitting down to watch Rises in one sitting. The 3 hour cut of Batman v Superman is good, but I don't see myself revisiting that film that often given the length.
The Dark Knight is still the best Batman film, hands down. I re-watched the film recently with an audience on the big screen and I am amazed 8 years later how much that film still works. It helps that it has a crackerjack of a screenplay and Heath Ledger's performance, but damn that film is solid from beginning to end. I forgot how tightly structured the first act is and the film's climax is surprisingly restrained given modern superhero films. It's really one of the best superhero films ever.
As for the argument that Batman v Superman is more singular in its vision and more cohesive than The Dark Knight Rises... I'm not sure if I can agree with that at all. The Theatrical Cut of Batman v Superman is really a mess of a film and while the tone is consistent, the plotting, characterization and editing is all over the place. The first thirty minutes of the film has some of the worst pacing & editing that I've seen in any recent summer blockbuster or mainstream film.
Now, if we're talking about the Ultimate Edition... that's a different story. However, I much prefer Nolan's Batman than Snyder's Batman, but that's just my own admittedly biased and personal take. I'd rather sit through Rises than the Theatrical Cut of BvS any day of the week, but the Ultimate Edition is worth sitting through. The problem is, its 3 hour run-time makes that somewhat difficult, whereas I have no problem sitting down to watch Rises in one sitting. The 3 hour cut of Batman v Superman is good, but I don't see myself revisiting that film that often given the length.
I don't think I've ever really had a problem with Snyder's take on the characters of Batman and Superman (in either of his films). My problem in both of these movies is about specific plot elements and writing that I don't really think work.
I think that's one of the strengths of the character. He can exist in a relatively grounded world or in one populated with Superman and Darkseid. I see Daredevil the same way.
Interesting. Technically there is only 17 minutes between TDKR and BvS:UE, so I am curious, what makes one easier to sit through than the other for you?
I can happily say that, even though some plot wrinkles are ironed out and Clarke is given something to do, the extra time on BvS does the film no extra favours and most of the pacing issues are still quite apparent. Meanwhile, on TDKR, though the pacing slackens slightly in the middle, overall the film engages throughout and so completing it never feels a chore.
Hugo - curious