I think, given the money made so far, more than just fans have seen it.
Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
So I finally saw the movie yesterday and here are my main thoughts on it:
I didn't really see the whole 'grimdark' thing everyone's been complaining about. I mean, it was no picnic in the park and some depressing shit happened, but overall I would describe the tone as more relentlessly melodramatic than actually dark. Especially the music (did they think this was supposed to be Klingon Opera or something?).
I mostly liked all the characters, especially in terms of casting, with the main exception of the Flash. That guy really rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm not even entirely sure why. Also, in terms of trying to get people excited about future possibilities, Cyborg might as well have not even been in this movie. I mean, you could have at least shown a close-up.
The action had some obvious bright spots, but was spotty overall. Loved the batmobile. Loved the idea of the batplane, but it basically had nothing to do other than being a plot device to allow Batman to go somewhere quickly (but it was cool that the weird bit on the front has an actual purpose). The warehouse rescue scene was awesome, but several of the earlier Batman fight scenes looked about as skilled and believable as the old Godzilla movies. It seems that making that bulky suit look believably fast and agile is going to be a problem. Really loved Wonder Woman and Superman tag-teaming, but it ended way too quickly. That's the kind of action that I want to see at the forefront of a big multi-hero blockbuster, not as a single shot.
The story was problematic. Mainly, I have to agree with the general criticism that I've seen - everything was built around looking cool and far too little time was devoted to developing the story. Lex's plan makes no sense, which doesn't actually bother me since he's clearly totally insane, but the movie never gets around to telling me why he's so insane, and that does bother me. Similarly Batman's decision to go rogue happens offscreen before the movie even starts and all we see him doing in this movie is spouting random philosophical justifications for why he's doing it - there was never any real sense of why he is the way he is, and that's made even worse by the fact that that his epiphany moment is fueled by literally nothing. Oh my, his mother's name is the same as mine... Batman knew the entire time that Superman wasn't a bad guy (at least not yet), so finding out he has a mother really shouldn't instantly change his mind about all this.
Superman is the only one that actually gets some real development here (which is funny, thinking back to all those people who were convinced that Superman was being thrown under the bus in order to give all the time to Batman - in this regard, it really is a Superman movie with guest stars, just like they always said it was), and it's ok overall, although he's starting to come off a little wishy-washy, constantly unable to decide if he should be a hero or not. I liked that he at least isn't making the exact same mistakes, this time. And he managed to avoid accidentally getting anyone killed. It bothered me, though, that so much of the story was set up around the idea of the consequences of Man of Steel, but when push came to shove, they just ignored that and acted like everything was all Luthor's fault. It would've been nice to see him actually consciously owning up to his mistakes in the previous movie and moving forward to be a better hero, instead of just constantly being weighed down by the pressure of being a hero at all.
Overall, it was thoroughly mediocre. Not terrible. Well-acted and nice to look at, but nothing even remotely special. I am curious whether the long cut will include any the missing pieces that bothered me the most. Maybe that will fix some things.
Also, not really anything to do with the quality of the movie, but I was disappointed to realize that this actually is the Death of Superman story. First of all because, despite the (surprisingly gutsy) move of actually ending the movie that way, everyone still knows perfectly well that he's alive, so I don't see what they really gained that way. And secondly because it would seem this is being used as the excuse to bring together the Justice League. I mean, I can understand where they're coming from and why they think that can work (because it probably can), but I really like the original concept of the Death of Superman story, with multiple figures trying to replace him, some of them even potentially for nefarious purposes, and as it stands we apparently aren't going to get any of that. Also, I love the part that Steel plays in that story, and I hate to see it on the big screen without him.
I didn't really see the whole 'grimdark' thing everyone's been complaining about. I mean, it was no picnic in the park and some depressing shit happened, but overall I would describe the tone as more relentlessly melodramatic than actually dark. Especially the music (did they think this was supposed to be Klingon Opera or something?).
I mostly liked all the characters, especially in terms of casting, with the main exception of the Flash. That guy really rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm not even entirely sure why. Also, in terms of trying to get people excited about future possibilities, Cyborg might as well have not even been in this movie. I mean, you could have at least shown a close-up.
The action had some obvious bright spots, but was spotty overall. Loved the batmobile. Loved the idea of the batplane, but it basically had nothing to do other than being a plot device to allow Batman to go somewhere quickly (but it was cool that the weird bit on the front has an actual purpose). The warehouse rescue scene was awesome, but several of the earlier Batman fight scenes looked about as skilled and believable as the old Godzilla movies. It seems that making that bulky suit look believably fast and agile is going to be a problem. Really loved Wonder Woman and Superman tag-teaming, but it ended way too quickly. That's the kind of action that I want to see at the forefront of a big multi-hero blockbuster, not as a single shot.
The story was problematic. Mainly, I have to agree with the general criticism that I've seen - everything was built around looking cool and far too little time was devoted to developing the story. Lex's plan makes no sense, which doesn't actually bother me since he's clearly totally insane, but the movie never gets around to telling me why he's so insane, and that does bother me. Similarly Batman's decision to go rogue happens offscreen before the movie even starts and all we see him doing in this movie is spouting random philosophical justifications for why he's doing it - there was never any real sense of why he is the way he is, and that's made even worse by the fact that that his epiphany moment is fueled by literally nothing. Oh my, his mother's name is the same as mine... Batman knew the entire time that Superman wasn't a bad guy (at least not yet), so finding out he has a mother really shouldn't instantly change his mind about all this.
Superman is the only one that actually gets some real development here (which is funny, thinking back to all those people who were convinced that Superman was being thrown under the bus in order to give all the time to Batman - in this regard, it really is a Superman movie with guest stars, just like they always said it was), and it's ok overall, although he's starting to come off a little wishy-washy, constantly unable to decide if he should be a hero or not. I liked that he at least isn't making the exact same mistakes, this time. And he managed to avoid accidentally getting anyone killed. It bothered me, though, that so much of the story was set up around the idea of the consequences of Man of Steel, but when push came to shove, they just ignored that and acted like everything was all Luthor's fault. It would've been nice to see him actually consciously owning up to his mistakes in the previous movie and moving forward to be a better hero, instead of just constantly being weighed down by the pressure of being a hero at all.
Overall, it was thoroughly mediocre. Not terrible. Well-acted and nice to look at, but nothing even remotely special. I am curious whether the long cut will include any the missing pieces that bothered me the most. Maybe that will fix some things.
Also, not really anything to do with the quality of the movie, but I was disappointed to realize that this actually is the Death of Superman story. First of all because, despite the (surprisingly gutsy) move of actually ending the movie that way, everyone still knows perfectly well that he's alive, so I don't see what they really gained that way. And secondly because it would seem this is being used as the excuse to bring together the Justice League. I mean, I can understand where they're coming from and why they think that can work (because it probably can), but I really like the original concept of the Death of Superman story, with multiple figures trying to replace him, some of them even potentially for nefarious purposes, and as it stands we apparently aren't going to get any of that. Also, I love the part that Steel plays in that story, and I hate to see it on the big screen without him.
Yep, the notion that 800 million has come from fans is beyond nonsensical.
On the whole, I enjoyed BvS - it was entertaining and had just enough depth to keep me invested in the characters and outcomes. I wasn't a huge fan of the story structure - including all of the flashbacks and dream sequences. Some worked, some didn't, but they didn't pull me out of the overall experience, either.
I think that is why, upon reflection, the seemingly WTF "Martha" moment makes sense. BatWayne wasn't going to suddenly stop going irrationally rogue by way of rational appeals (see: Alfred) - it took an emotional connection to break through his lack of reason.
I'm not sure why it doesn't work for you, but I thought the whole opening sequence - and the entire purpose of the opening sequence - was to explain why BatWayne has such an irrational anger toward Superman - and why that anger is being transferred to Gotham's criminals.
I think that is why, upon reflection, the seemingly WTF "Martha" moment makes sense. BatWayne wasn't going to suddenly stop going irrationally rogue by way of rational appeals (see: Alfred) - it took an emotional connection to break through his lack of reason.
The opening sequence works for me in explaining his suspicion and mistrust of Superman. Not outright hatred, and not rage so furious that it was taking over his whole life. The impression I got from the whole thing was that the rage was coming from his life as a whole - not just the kryptonian incident, but also what came before it (remember his lingering look at the Robin costume and his comment about 'How many good guys stayed good'). Which is the more believable way to go, except instead of showing me the original seed of why he became this way, they insisted on repetitive flashbacks to his parents' funeral, so I'm left in the dark thinking 'Something must've happened to make him so lost, but damned if I know what'.
I agree that it works as a starting point - a breakthrough - but not as a solution. That should've been the moment when he finally started listening and figuring things out, not the moment when he instantly threw away everything he had been doing and became all repentant for having misjudged Superman. The rage he had before that was too strong, too long lived and too well justified in his head to be broken in a single moment with nothing but purely emotional distress.
I thought it was reasonably clear that Bats is just worn down and cynical from being in the trenches for too long, and that the Man of Steel incident was just what pushed him over the edge. You know, like, that's where it starts? The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel? It doesn't really need much exposition beyond that, and the Bruce Wayne sequence in Metropolis sold the reasons for that pretty convincingly.
I also never thought it was all that unclear why Lex is as nuts as he is, because his motivations are just the dark mirror version of Batman's motivations. He's a creature of supreme ego and vanity who can't stand having his power eclipsed by a god from space, and has grown obsessed with killing him however he can. He's what the fever, the rage, and the feeling of powerlessness turns someone into when they're not a good man. All of that's pretty clear.
(The only part of his plot that wants more explaining for me is exactly what he was planning to do with Doomsday after he killed Superman -- I get the sense that mixing his DNA in with the creature's was supposed to allow him to control it, but that's never stated on screen. It's also hinted that there was actually a much bigger game in mind for after Superman was dead, presumably with Doomsday as an instrument -- and it's teased that Luthor knew something about Darkseid -- so it'll be interesting to see how that connection comes out in future films.)
I dug the hell out of Cyborg's cameo. Aquaman's too. And I finally figured out what the parademon vision / speedster premonition "dream" Batman has is from. I had no idea I had that much DC trivia knocking around in my head.
It wasn't. That moment presumably came when they stopped fighting and Superman explained Luthor's plot and his (successful) attempt to manipulate Batman. They don't actually show them having that talk, but it obviously happens given what Batman knows in subsequent scenes.
I also never thought it was all that unclear why Lex is as nuts as he is, because his motivations are just the dark mirror version of Batman's motivations. He's a creature of supreme ego and vanity who can't stand having his power eclipsed by a god from space, and has grown obsessed with killing him however he can. He's what the fever, the rage, and the feeling of powerlessness turns someone into when they're not a good man. All of that's pretty clear.
(The only part of his plot that wants more explaining for me is exactly what he was planning to do with Doomsday after he killed Superman -- I get the sense that mixing his DNA in with the creature's was supposed to allow him to control it, but that's never stated on screen. It's also hinted that there was actually a much bigger game in mind for after Superman was dead, presumably with Doomsday as an instrument -- and it's teased that Luthor knew something about Darkseid -- so it'll be interesting to see how that connection comes out in future films.)
I dug the hell out of Cyborg's cameo. Aquaman's too. And I finally figured out what the parademon vision / speedster premonition "dream" Batman has is from. I had no idea I had that much DC trivia knocking around in my head.
grendelsbayne said:
It wasn't. That moment presumably came when they stopped fighting and Superman explained Luthor's plot and his (successful) attempt to manipulate Batman. They don't actually show them having that talk, but it obviously happens given what Batman knows in subsequent scenes.
That point worked for me just fine--Batman realized immediately that he had been played by Lex Luthor. I don't think his rage was gone, just that he realized it had been misdirected.
Imagine some A-Hole maintaining eye contact, with you, is keying your car.
Contain your rage, it's fine, your car is safe.
I was just using a metaphor.
Now, think back to what Superman did to the Batmobile.
Contain your rage, it's fine, your car is safe.
I was just using a metaphor.
Now, think back to what Superman did to the Batmobile.
http://comicbook.com/2016/04/12/batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-passes-300-million-at-the-dome/
Passed $300 million domestic. It will likely surpass Spiderman to be the 6th highest grossing superhero movie of all time by Monday.
Passed $300 million domestic. It will likely surpass Spiderman to be the 6th highest grossing superhero movie of all time by Monday.
I too, prefer a Superman who has some ability to overcome Kryptonite. Not that it won't affect him (or eventually kill him) just that he uses hits wits and will to do what he must regardless of green K, rather than just wimpering and cowering.
Like the scene in Superman Returns where he lifts the island into space. He has a shard of K inside him and the island is laced with it, but he still just keeps on lifting, pushing, flying...he knows that if he drops the island it would be catastrophic so he pushes himself to his very end. Job done, he drops to Earth near death. Say what you will about Returns (And I probably agree with every negative you list) but I like seeing his strength shown physically and mentally at the same time like it is there.
Like the scene in Superman Returns where he lifts the island into space. He has a shard of K inside him and the island is laced with it, but he still just keeps on lifting, pushing, flying...he knows that if he drops the island it would be catastrophic so he pushes himself to his very end. Job done, he drops to Earth near death. Say what you will about Returns (And I probably agree with every negative you list) but I like seeing his strength shown physically and mentally at the same time like it is there.
I liked the Superman lifting the island too. My favorite part of Returns is the bullet and eye scene.
Forgot to mention...
I like Batman's detective work in BvS more than the one in Dark Knight.
Congrats to BvS hitting 300 million domestic and 800 million world wide.
Forgot to mention...
I like Batman's detective work in BvS more than the one in Dark Knight.
Congrats to BvS hitting 300 million domestic and 800 million world wide.
Kevin spacey stole the show in returns. Very good. Behind the scenes with him on a go cart dragging a superman doll is priceless haha.
Yeahs so from what read at 800 million its broken even. I guess im one of the few who liked it. I give it a fair B. Loved man of steel. Not as good as donners films but decent.
Dont mess with the waiter he put ur truck up between the power lines.
Yeahs so from what read at 800 million its broken even. I guess im one of the few who liked it. I give it a fair B. Loved man of steel. Not as good as donners films but decent.
Dont mess with the waiter he put ur truck up between the power lines.
I've seen reactions like the one in STM, and the first animated clip, I just thought you meant that he instantly dropped unconscious the moment someone pulled out green K.
I prefer it when kryptonite is lethal and renders him sick and powerless for a long time. It makes the substance a real threat. As I remember, Lois & Clark did this well. I don't like that it doesn't have that effect in this movie but I understand that they have a short amount of time to tell a story and can't afford to have Superman ill and out of commission for an extended period.
I don't ascribe to the 'BvS is a flop' school of thought but beating a 14 year old film isn't really all that great an achievement.
Anyone else feel kinda bad for Doomsday, even in the theater? He's born without a mother into a world without a sun, and people immediately try to kill him. Maybe it had to be done, but a Spock or a Data would have taken a moment to mourn nevertheless. Even if Doomsday was a fundamentally irredeemable cockroach, because alien genetics, let the record show that in their first-ever live action meeting, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman teamed up to slaughter a baby.
