Batman: Caped Crusader (Prime Video)

[Christopher]

Sketches does not equal TV series.

Why are you defining this in terms of the product instead of the artist? Why is it so hard for you to understand that artists have their own signature styles? That's how art works. That's why people are drawn to particular artists or writers or singers or whatever -- because they have their own unique, individual ways of creating and expressing themselves.

If you can point to me some other series or direct-to-video Batman/Batman related project he did in the style, not connected to the B: TAS style, then I can see your point.

I already did -- Green Lantern: The Animated Series. Also Timm's 2015 animated movie Justice League: Gods and Monsters, set in an alternate version of the DC Universe that was reimagined from scratch by Timm and Alan Burnett.

 

[the G-man]

But which people? The establishment mentality isn't necessarily shared by disadvantaged groups.

Also, I think you're wrong; keep in mind that these were people who'd recently lived through the Great Depression, when people had to struggle to survive. Much of the population had directly experienced poverty and hardship within the past 10-15 years, so it makes no sense to say they wouldn't understand how social circumstances might drive people to crime.

Not to mention that the postwar '40s were a very progressive time compared to the '50s, and there were a lot of people with liberal values advocating change and reform. Remember that Superman, in his early comics and his postwar radio series, fought against government and corporate corruption in defense of the poor and disadvantaged. There was a widespread understanding in the '40s that corruption and organized crime were rampant in government and police, which is why the Green Hornet on radio was a vigilante pretending to be a gangster, with only one trusted ally in an otherwise compromised police force. (Frank Miller pretty much cribbed the Green Hornet's premise directly for Batman: Year One.)

While we often like to think the "good guy" characters will share all our views, I'm sure we can all think of people who grew up disadvantaged who became extremely conservative on issues, including crime, and people who grew up privileged who became extremely progressive on those same issues.

I'm simply pointing out that it's not outside the realm of possibility for someone, especially someone who made their career in law enforcement in the 1940s (which, while perhaps more progressive than the 50s, was still far more conservative than the modern era), to have a relatively unforgiving attitude towards criminals, even if it is not as justified as he thinks it is.

 

[Kor]

I don't know how common of a character trope it is, but I thought it was interesting to have Selina Kyle be something like a "fallen aristocrat" who was accustomed to a lifestyle of wealth and privilege, but then suddenly having everything pulled out from under her due to her father's fraud, being unable to pay the utility bills or Greta's salary but still feeling entitled to the wealthy socialite life, or keeping up appearances, or whatever.

Kor

 

[Christopher]

Episodes 9-10: An interesting, fresh take on Two-Face, mostly eschewing the usual gimmicks like the coin flip and the duality obsession, and focusing more on his inner mental conflict. I'm not sure the portrayal really quite came together, though, since he seemed to jump rather randomly between violent rage and contrition. Also, the character design was kind of strange -- it doesn't seem right that the scarred half of his face has the same skin tone as the intact half, both in terms of how Two-Face is usually depicted and in terms of what recently acid-burned skin would probably look like.

Some of the way it ended felt like a rehash of the Nolan movies, though.

Spoiler

You've got Harvey dying at the end like in The Dark Knight, and like Batman Begins, you've got a mention that new, worse monsters will replace the gangland figures, followed by a tag scene teasing the Joker. Although it looks like they're going for the original '40s version of the Joker as a cold, calculating murderer in contrast to his appearance, like the Conrad Veidt character in The Man Who Laughs that was his inspiration. That could be interesting to see.

Another deconstruction I liked was Batman actually having a phone number, instead of going through the usual Bat-Signal rigmarole, which hardly makes sense in this context. And they went for the period-authentic "Klondike 5" exchange, the equivalent of the modern "555" exchange used for fictional phone numbers (KL5 = 555 on the dial; this is why phone keys have letters on them, because they used to be used for the first two letters of the place names the numbers were associated with).

It struck me at one point that I wish Batman didn't use a grappling gun here. I think that's a fairly modern addition to his arsenal, one requiring a pretty advanced technology to make it so compact; in a '40s setting, I think he'd just manually spin and toss a grappling hook. Indeed, his grappling gun here is so tiny that it would have to use hammerspace technology to fit so much line inside of it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sandman was using a Wirepoon in the early Forties, in his gasmask phase and in his union suit phase.

Simon and Kirby did a little sidebar on it when they had the strip.
Not exactly the "bat-grapple", but close enough.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Yeah, that's basically the same thing.

 

[Christopher]

Sandman was using a Wirepoon in the early Forties, in his gasmask phase and in his union suit phase.
View attachment 41474
Simon and Kirby did a little sidebar on it when they had the strip. View attachment 41475
Not exactly the "bat-grapple", but close enough.

Okay, but did Batman have one? I sort of have the impression that it wasn't something that became a standard part of Batman's arsenal until the Burton movie. I think West and Ward occasionally used a speargun or bazooka sort of thing to fire a grapple, but usually they just twirled and threw.

Anyway, it just strikes me as something that would have to be fairly technologically advanced to be miniaturized to a practical degree. I remember when the Mythbusters built their own grappling gun, and it was much more massive than Batman's is usually shown to be.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Okay, but did Batman have one? I sort of have the impression that it wasn't something that became a standard part of Batman's arsenal until the Burton movie. I think West and Ward occasionally used a speargun or bazooka sort of thing to fire a grapple, but usually they just twirled and threw.

Anyway, it just strikes me as something that would have to be fairly technologically advanced to be miniaturized to a practical degree. I remember when the Mythbusters built their own grappling gun, and it was much more massive than Batman's is usually shown to be.

I'm just pointing out other heroes had the technology. I don't think Batman did. I seem to recall a large scale grapple launcher in Batman '66.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

It seems to me the grappling gun may not be exactly practical but no less so than carrying batarangs and rope.

 

[Christopher]

It seems to me the grappling gun may not be exactly practical but no less so than carrying batarangs and rope.

I just feel it's too modern. If the idea is to go retro, I would've liked to see them embrace the low-tech approach as much as possible. At the very least, if he has to have a grappling gun, it should be a big steampunkish contraption that gives off a big puff of vapor when it's fired.

 

[JD]

Sketches does not equal TV series.

If you can point to me some other series or direct-to-video Batman/Batman related project he did in the style, not connected to the B: TAS style, then I can see your point. I honestly lost interest in his later projects after seeing clips years ago and cannot recall appearances.

I'm pretty sure he's done some comics in his usual style that weren't set in the DCAU, but I'm not positive.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

You're making the common mistake of established fans: assuming they're the exclusive target audience for a new version. On the contrary, the primary target audience for a new version is new viewers, people who are discovering the franchise for the first time. The established fanbase is always a diminishing demographic, since people die or change their interests. So the primary goal is always to attract a new audience, which is why characters and concepts are reinvented and modernized. Yes, it's generally preferred to make something that older fans will appreciate too, but that's a secondary consideration. The important thing is to make a show that stands on its own merits.

This approach was what was done with the recent She-Ra TV show by Noelle Stevenson; of course, the male fans (and some female ones like these two ladies on YouTube) despised it and accused Stevenson of foisting her own insecurities onto She-Ra & Glimmer.

This is particularly true of American animated shows, which are usually aimed at younger viewers. Caped Crusader is a TV-14 show. That means it's made primarily for high school and college students, people who wouldn't have been alive when B:TAS was on the air.

Exactly that, as was the recent She-Ra TV show.

Who Framed Roger Rabbit is massively different from its source novel and massively better as a result, because the novel's not that good. The How to Train Your Dragon movies have very little in common with their source books besides the title, the broad concept, and some character names, but they're excellent (although I haven't read the books, so I can't compare quality).

The first two Harry Potter movies are the ones that are most faithful to their source books, and they're also the two weakest ones. They replicate the surface text "accurately," but they're too prosaic and don't capture the books' sense of wonder and mystery.

The hallmark example of the difference between fidelity and quality is Gus Van Sant's verbatim, shot-for-shot remake of Psycho, which is widely regarded as terrible.

The recent Dune movies also deviate from what's on the printed page, and they're better for it, and have been critically acclaimed despite not having things like the banquet sequence or Alia as a little girl.

 

[Commander Troi]

She-Ra was brilliant.

 

[theenglish]

Okay, but did Batman have one? I sort of have the impression that it wasn't something that became a standard part of Batman's arsenal until the Burton movie.

I remember noting it as a new device when I watched the movie in 1989. I think most times in the comics he used a batarang attached to a cable, but I don't have any comics in front of me right now.

 

[Christopher]

I remember noting it as a new device when I watched the movie in 1989. I think most times in the comics he used a batarang attached to a cable, but I don't have any comics in front of me right now.

Yes, the Batarang, of course! That agrees with my recollection.

This entry on the Batman Wiki confirms it:

Grapple Gun

Grapple Guns are hi-tech pistols that fire small Grappling Hooks fitted on high-tensile wire. They are often used to scale buildings and swing to areas from long distances. They can also be used to offensively to pull enemies or object towards the user. Variations of the grapple guns have used...

batman.fandom.com

From his debut, Batman did not use grapple guns, usually making use of the silken cord with Batarangs as grappling hooks. However, early versions of the gun-fired grappling ropes appeared throughout Batman comics prior to high-tech versions' debut. Gardner Fox created Sandman's "Wirepoon" pistol but neglected to ever have have Batman uses such a device. The Wirepoon pistol itself lacked any motorized pulley system, it was essentially a miniaturized harpoon launcher. Jim Shooter created a Batpoon Launcher in 1966 for World's Finest Comics #163, but the device is only used to attack Superman and never seen again. That same year Robert Kanigher created the concept of Suction-Cap Climbing Ropes in Batman #183, the only difference being that used suction-cups rather than dangerous harpoon bolts.

In 1981, Gerry Conway wrote Justice League of America #196, which depicted Batman using a Batarang Launcher to save himself from falling, rather than just throwing a roped-Batarang as usual. It basically the same as the Wirepoon, though this did not feature a motorized-pully system and used a batarang as its grapple hook. The gadget itself was a cylinder-shaped tool rather than pistol. In 1986 Frank Miller had Wayne use a Harpoon Pistol in Hunt the Dark Knight. The harpoon pistol is just a modified Mauser firearm, presented as more grounded and practical tool stored in a holster on the side of his boot. However, none of these featured motorized pulley systems and Batman would physically climb the ropes once fired. Additionally, the character would rarely used such devices more than once, with them usual being abandoned after their first appearances.

So if they're going for a '40s feel, the grappling gun is definitely an anachronism. But then, a lot about this show is modern interpretations of Batman back-projected into a '40s setting. The idea of Batman being an obsessed, isolated loner is very modern; he may have been somewhat like that in his first year, but once Robin, The Sensational Character Find of 1940, came along, he became a cheerful, avuncular friend to authority. And I think I mentioned that the portrayal of Gotham as racked with corruption didn't come along until Batman: Year One in '87, though that was cribbed from the '40s Green Hornet radio show and/or the '66 GH TV series. Flass originated in B:YO, and of course there are plenty of other modern characters -- Barbara Gordon (from the '60s), Bullock, Montoya, Harley, etc.

 

[Set Harth]

The recent Dune movies also deviate from what's on the printed page, and they're better for it, and have been critically acclaimed despite not having things like the banquet sequence or Alia as a little girl.

They always cut the banquet. It's Dune's Scouring of the Shire

 

[the G-man]

So if they're going for a '40s feel, the grappling gun is definitely an anachronism. But then, a lot about this show is modern interpretations of Batman back-projected into a '40s setting.

Hasn't Batman always had gadgets that are more advanced than the time period allowed? For example, other than the very earlier, and quickly abandoned, red roadster, the Batmobile has always been at least ten years ahead of its time.

 

[Christopher]

Hasn't Batman always had gadgets that are more advanced than the time period allowed? For example, other than the very earlier, and quickly abandoned, red roadster, the Batmobile has always been at least ten years ahead of its time.

To an extent, yes, but a tiny grappling gun like that is ahead of today's technology. If this is the '40s, then Batman's tech should feel like it comes from the '50s or '60s. It should feel more basic and limited than what we've gotten used to seeing in Batman stories over the past 35 years. The image of Batman firing a grappling gun has become routine and ordinary, so I just think it would've been more interesting if they'd taken that away from him -- in the same way that Star Trek: Enterprise would've been more interesting if they'd stuck with the original plan of not having transporters yet.

Indeed, I would suggest that a large part of the reason the makers of Batman '89, B:TAS, and subsequent productions felt it necessary to give Batman a grappling gun instead of just a thrown Batarang is because the buildings in urban areas are much taller on the average than they used to be, so he needs the extra assist. It would've helped illustrate the period setting if they'd simplified his tech a bit more.

 

[the G-man]

I would suggest that a large part of the reason the makers of Batman '89, B:TAS, and subsequent productions felt it necessary to give Batman a grappling gun instead of just a thrown Batarang is because the buildings in urban areas are much taller on the average than they used to be, so he needs the extra assist. It would've helped illustrate the period setting if they'd simplified his tech a bit more.

That's an excellent point. Now that you mention it, I think of the old comics, and even the credits to the '66 show, where the skyline's buildings seemed relatively short by today's standards, 10-20 stories, tops.

 

[Christopher]

That's also the reason modern movies make Godzilla so much bigger than he used to be -- so he wouldn't be dwarfed by the skyscrapers.