Batman: Caped Crusader (Prime Video)
- Thread starter Wingcommanderdarkwolf01
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Two episodes left and it keeps getting better!
Barbara is awesome and I can’t wait to see her as Batgirl, maybe for next season.
I think it’s such a crazy twist that they paired Harley with Montaya but I love to see lady-lovin’-ladies! Hopefully we see Ivy in the future.
Barbara is awesome and I can’t wait to see her as Batgirl, maybe for next season.
I think it’s such a crazy twist that they paired Harley with Montaya but I love to see lady-lovin’-ladies! Hopefully we see Ivy in the future.
Well, they have a lot in common. They're both characters Bruce Timm and Paul Dini co-created for B:TAS (along with Mitch Brian in Montoya's case), surely the two most enduring characters originating in that show, and they both ended up being portrayed as lesbian in later comics and screen productions. So in a way, it's fitting that Timm's new series pairs them off.
I'm also Black, and I also felt the color blindness of the first season was incongruous with the time period. I would've rather it fit the time more accurately. But I also value diversity and think the way it could've been achieved is in the storytelling which puts Batman and the supporting cast in scenarios where they interact with non-white characters and confront social issues, or what have you, that allow for a more organic inclusion of diverse characters. I imagine that approach would also be decried pejoratively by some as "woke" (for the record, I don't like the misapplication of the term) too. Timm, et. al, might have been in a tough spot and just went for the safest option.
Welp, your argument fails right there.
But seriously:
I didn't see anything in the episode that made her any better or worse of a person than any of the Catwoman comics I've read from the 40s until the 70s. She was a thief, but not a killer, and motivated by selfish interests (greed, notoriety, etc.). She had the hots for Batman who obviously felt the same way on a certain level but wasn't letting that get in the way of his mission. This was, other than a few storylines that were eventually abandoned, was the character's status quo until Crisis. (And, while I acknowledge an Earth-2 permanent reformation, that was essentially all flashback/retcon to explain Helena's parentage...and occurred on an alternate earth, rather than the main continuity).
I meant Bill Finger, I totally own that screw up (I blame typing too fast without thinking while I was double checking my memory about Catwoman's origin) but I don't want anyone to think that I have any respect for Bob Kane, screw that guy. That doesn't change the reason she was created or how she acted since her first appearances, and the fact that in The Caped Crusader Catwoman is a rich ditz and acts nothing like any legit version of Catwoman, she's just some crappy OC made by the over the hill Bruce Timm using catwoman's name.
To be fair the same could be said about the New Batman Adventures Catwoman, Timm has had a weird complete inability to write Catwoman since then, even though the character was done fairly well in her original Batman TAS appearances (even if the weird Dr. Moreau style story in BTAS was weird). I assume that Timm's fetish for Bruce/Barbara makes him see Selina Kyle as a threat to his weird/messed up "ship", so he undermines the character as much as possible. Then again the guy has literally admitted in the past to disliking and being unable to write for Riddler and Bane, so he obviously just has some batman characters he can't work with, which is made worse by the fact that he's just a bad writer in general now.
Anyone else notice the actress named "Yvonne" in the Clayface ep was wearing a purple dress with yellow trim?
To be fair to Timm, he's of a generation (as I am to some extent) that remembers Babs was created as a peer and potential love interest for Bruce. At the time of her introduction she was head librarian of the Gotham City library system and held a PhD in library science. She was clearly no younger than her mid-20s at a time when Bruce was canonically 29. And over on the TV show they actually dated at least once (when Bruce came to her apartment to try her fondue), even if the part of date we were shown was being chaperoned by her father.
It wasn't until Bob Rozakis had nothing better to write about in the 70s that Batgirl and Robin 'shipping became a thing. And, at the time, it was arguably as creepy, if not creepier than anything between Bruce and Barbara given that Dick was only an 18 or 19 yo college student and Babs was old enough to be a member of congress.
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It's a tricky topic. On the one hand, it is absolutely historically inaccurate. On the other hand, I think it's worth asking how much historical accuracy should be the end-all be-all and at what times other elements should take priority. Especially in a TV show about a bat-man fighting costumed supervillains, which is a level removed from reality already.
I always think back to what the makers of one Lovecraft-inspired RPG said when asked if the game would ask players to be true to the racism and sexism of the era: Paraphrasing, "No, because if you can pretend Cthulhu exists, you can pretend a version of the early 20th century that's less prejudiced."
I think it's true that people can pretend just about anything, but I don't think that in itself is a particularly good reason to say they should.
I do think, though, there's a reasonable argument to be made that just because remembering the past as it actually existed has value, that does not automatically mean there is no value in envisioning a version of the past that is better than what it actually was.
I do think, though, there's a reasonable argument to be made that just because remembering the past as it actually existed has value, that does not automatically mean there is no value in envisioning a version of the past that is better than what it actually was.
Not for that reason in and of itself but because, as I mentioned, sometimes "other elements should take priority." Such as, indeed, the one you bring up.
IIRC, the mayor threatens Gordon and makes reference to his hiring being a risk. Bullock and Flass don't want to follow Montoya's lead not only because they want to be the leads, but because... and it's left blank whether it's because she's a woman or because she's Latina or both.
These are subtle, but they are there.
These are subtle, but they are there.
I can understand wanting to see an accurate depiction of the era the show is set in, but I think sometimes issues like racism, which is an important issue, can be a distraction from what the series is trying to focus on, especially when you only have 10 25 minute episodes.
That's interesting, I had assumed she had started off as a kid and just aged up the way the earlier Robins have. I guess I assumed since she was Batgirl and not Batwoman that was a kid when she took on the name.
Back then, it was still common to refer to single adult women as "girls." (See, for instance, ST: "The Lights of Zetar," where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy all refer to Mira Romaine as "the girl.") Plus they'd already had a Batwoman in the '50s, though they had a teenage Bat-Girl at the time as well.
Lot of "girls" in the comic of the 60s and 70s. Many were grown women like Invisible Girl and Hawkgirl. Others like Supergirl aged up. She was a college student just 6 years after her debut. And Marvel Girl who graduated in the 60s. Both would remain "girls" for a decade or more. I think Sue finally became the Invisible Woman in the 80s.
Precisely. 60s-70s Batgirl was a grown woman and a "girl" only in the same sense as Sue Storm and Shayera Hol (or her TV contemporary the "Girl" from UNCLE).
It's also somewhat instructive to look at the pre-season publicity for S3 of Batman '66. All the pictures of Adam and Yvonne, in and out of costume, are very flirtatious and appear to play up the possible romantic connection. (Note: While normally one doesn't want to lean too heavily into the 60s series for what is or isn't the proper characterization of the Batman characters, Batgirl was jointly created by the producers of the TV series and editors of the comics as part of the pitch for the third season of the series, so here it is more relevant than might normally be the case).
or that she's a lesbian.
I was surprised they went as far as they did with that part of Montoya's character given that certain elements would be quick to claim it's indoctrinated kids, inappropriate wokism or what ever the latest bullshit claim is.
That it's been there for many years (or from the beginning? - I'm not that up the Batman lore for the supporting characters) wouldn't matter to them.
Meh. Back in the '80s, "certain elements" accused the Smurfs of being Satanic. You can't worry too much about reactions like that.
And there are plenty of shows these days, even in kids' animation, that include LGBTQ characters and relationships, so I don't see why it's surprising that this show does the same.