Batman: Caped Crusader (Prime Video)

[the G-man]

In the original continuity, he started out as a corrupt cop, but once he became a popular character, he reformed and became one of the good guys. Post-Crisis, he had a bad reputation but was honest in reality.

In his very, very, first appearance, courtesy of Archie Goodwin and Howard Chaykin (!) (note: Doug Moench maintains it's a different character but accepted DC's ruling on creatorship) it was more ambiguous (which is probably because he only appeared for about one page, not to be seen again for nearly ten years).

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Was Lt. Eckhardt in 'Batman 89' meant to be Harvey Bullock but changed for some reason? I felt that's who he was supposed to be.

 

[Kor]

Was Lt. Eckhardt in 'Batman 89' meant to be Harvey Bullock but changed for some reason? I felt that's who he was supposed to be.

I don't think the screenwriters have ever said, but fans speculated that Eckhardt was inspired by either Bullock or Flass, or both. The crooked cop in general is a stock character in crime fiction, in any case.

Kor

 

[the G-man]

Was Lt. Eckhardt in 'Batman 89' meant to be Harvey Bullock but changed for some reason? I felt that's who he was supposed to be.

I don't think the screenwriters have ever said, but fans speculated that Eckhardt was inspired by either Bullock or Flass, or both. The crooked cop in general is a stock character in crime fiction, in any case.

Kor

I seem to recall some early script drafts from other writers where it was Bullock. I always assumed it was either a rights thing or not wanting to kill off a fan favorite character that turned Eckhardt into Bullock.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Hmm, I see what you're saying; certainly the 1940s Superman radio series did some impressive storylines in its post-WWII years about fighting racists, Neo-Nazis and other aspiring fascists, and anti-immigrant demagogues. But on the other hand, the disadvantage of something like that is that actors of color in the cast (since the modern practice is usually to match the ethnicities of animated character and voice actor) would be relegated to playing a limited range of character types and professions and would only be able to participate in the stories in limited ways. Only the white cast members would really be free to play a role in stories that weren't about racial injustice, or to play characters other than servants, laborers, singers, dancers, etc. It seems fairer to the actors to create a show that allows them all to participate equally in a wide range of stories.

In a realistic 1940s setting, the character most likely to be black would be Alfred, and that could be kind of uncomfortable. Certainly a 1940s Bruce Wayne would probably have treated a black Alfred well, as well as Jack Benny treated Rochester (the one black character in 1940s radio who was written respectfully and never put down with racial stereotypes, because Benny insisted), but to modern eyes it would still be a stereotyped and servile role and thus problematical. (Though on the other hand, a story about a forbidden romance between Batman and a black Catwoman might be interesting.)

Presumably the reason Timm embraced the '40s setting was nostalgia for its style, the tone of its comics and movies, its fashions and music, etc. If nostalgia for an era is the driver, I can see the appeal of creating an alternate fantasy version that has the good things about that era without the bad. Yeah, it's dishonest about the reality, but it's more of an aspirational fantasy. A show that confronted the darker realities could be worthwhile, certainly, but it might be too depressing, especially with the foreknowledge that things would not get much better for the characters of color in their lifetimes.

Yeah. Inclusiveness is fine and great (for example, Jeffrey Wright's Gordon in the "the Batman", Kirby Howell-Baptiste in "the Sandman") but when it takes you out of the story because you know damn well that isn't how the world was when the story is set, maybe save that particular casting decision for a different production.

My thoughts too. In a period piece, this actually does a disservice to inclusion. A series based in the forties can actually do a great job of portraying racism and antisemitism of the time. Batman can be investigating Nazi sympathizers for example. Lives of Black Americans depicted more accurately, or lives of LGBTQ+ people, could be highly profound. If you're going to set this series in the forties, make it a real period piece.

Hmm, I see what you're saying; certainly the 1940s Superman radio series did some impressive storylines in its post-WWII years about fighting racists, Neo-Nazis and other aspiring fascists, and anti-immigrant demagogues. But on the other hand, the disadvantage of something like that is that actors of color in the cast (since the modern practice is usually to match the ethnicities of animated character and voice actor) would be relegated to playing a limited range of character types and professions and would only be able to participate in the stories in limited ways. Only the white cast members would really be free to play a role in stories that weren't about racial injustice, or to play characters other than servants, laborers, singers, dancers, etc. It seems fairer to the actors to create a show that allows them all to participate equally in a wide range of stories.

In a realistic 1940s setting, the character most likely to be black would be Alfred, and that could be kind of uncomfortable. Certainly a 1940s Bruce Wayne would probably have treated a black Alfred well, as well as Jack Benny treated Rochester (the one black character in 1940s radio who was written respectfully and never put down with racial stereotypes, because Benny insisted), but to modern eyes it would still be a stereotyped and servile role and thus problematical. (Though on the other hand, a story about a forbidden romance between Batman and a black Catwoman might be interesting.)

Presumably the reason Timm embraced the '40s setting was nostalgia for its style, the tone of its comics and movies, its fashions and music, etc. If nostalgia for an era is the driver, I can see the appeal of creating an alternate fantasy version that has the good things about that era without the bad. Yeah, it's dishonest about the reality, but it's more of an aspirational fantasy. A show that confronted the darker realities could be worthwhile, certainly, but it might be too depressing, especially with the foreknowledge that things would not get much better for the characters of color in their lifetimes.

As a black man who believes in sticking to historical truth, no matter how painful it is or how bad it was for people of color, I agree with what's been said; this is coming off as Timm trying to please the usual people on and off of the Internet (in part, the people at a site like this one and this one) who will blast a TV show for not having any diversity. The problem is, as has probably been said before to these people (and also has been said before by me elsewhere in this BBS), it's a misrepresentation of history and is wrong on all counts; history's not about making a person (a minority watching TV or seeing a movie set in the past) feel good, it's about dealing with what actually happened. That's why unlike what was said about this movie by this director and was said about this movie by this writer, I don't expect a movie or TV show set in an era like the 1940's to be as if it was set today, with today's sensibilities, but to reflect the era in which it was set (similar things have been happening on the TV series version of A League Of Their Own.)

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Three episodes in so far and I’m enjoying it. The credits are so cool! Christina Ricci as Selina is great! Excited to see Harleen become Harley. Very interesting to have her be Bruce’s therapist.

 

[Mage]

Ugh.... I'm so excited to start this, but I can't get distracted by a new show. I finally have the chance to finish SG1 as a series, so I need to do that before it disappears from Prime again like it did last year. I'll start this straight after that.

 

[the G-man]

I watched the first two episodes this weekend. I liked it well enough to watch more but it was a mixed bag at best.

The stories were decent approximations of bronze age style Batman stories. Darker than the silver age but Batman was a detective who solved crimes, went undercover as Playboy Bruce and saved people. Most of the voice cast was good. Timm still has his sense of GA-influenced design and the animation was good.

Batman, Alfred and the Gordons? Good. Making Babs a lawyer was a good idea that gets her into the middle of a story organically and kind of ties into the (now all but forgotten) fact she became a member of congress in the original Earth 1 continuity. I'm also of a generation where she was closer in age to Bruce than Dick so if a romance develops it's not going to bother me.

The creative choices around Penguin did not work for me. Female Penguin? Okay, worth a shot, but this particular shot missed. There was little, if any, of the classic Penguin personality and Minnie Driver's delivery was flat where she should have chewed the scenary.

Probably the biggest miss in the first two episodes was how they handled Harvey Dent. Harvey is supposed (at least when the character has any depth) to be a good, if flawed, guy who had a genuine friendship with Bruce and shared mission with Batman. Making him a swarmy, corrupt, politician kind of (if not completely) destroys the pathos of his fall.

Bottom line for me is that so far, if you're a Batman fan, check it out but keep your expectations created by B:TAS in check.

 

[Commander Troi]

We binged the whole thing and really enjoyed it. There were some subtle undercurrents of racism in regards to Gordon and Montoya that I appreciated, but nothing really "in period". However, there were no anachronisms either. The voice actors were all good and the show is beautiful to look at. Dent's character gets more interesting at the end of the season. I'm really looking forward to season 2, which has already been greenlit.

 

[Christopher]

However, there were no anachronisms either.

Someone mentioned the police wearing anachronistic riot gear.

 

[Commander Troi]

It didn't look odd to me, but that could be ignorance on my part.

 

[Samurai8472]

I'm really looking forward to season 2, which has already been greenlit.

It's going to be awhile. It's probably in the same stages as X-men 97 season 2

Why ‘Batman: The Animated Series’ Creator Bruce Timm Finally Returned to Gotham City With ‘Caped Crusader’

Batman: Caped Crusader, launching on Prime Video, is a spiritual successor to Batman: The Animated Series and Bruce Timm talks all about it

www.thewrap.com

When Amazon rescued the series, they also elongated its lifespan, ordering two seasons, for a total of 20 episodes (so far). “We’re still working on the scripts and starting to record,” Timm said about season 2. “We’ve got a long way to go.”

And they're not ready to break out the Superman card yet

“We’re only doing 10 episodes a pop, so it’s not like we’re bored yet,” Tucker said. Timm then added: “We don’t have to bring Superman in yet to keep it interesting.” Well, not yet.

 

[kirk55555]

I really tried to get into this show, but I just couldn't. The characters were dull when they weren't annoying, the episode plots too bland and frequently too "grounded", and it didn't even look very good. Its like someone took vague inspiration from the same art style that influenced Batman TAS, but didn't have the writing team to do anything with it.

A lot of the character changes were also just not very good. I don't care about changes like characters skin color or gender swaps but stuff like rich girl Catwoman and corrupt (pre-injury) Harvey Dent were just not interesting takes on the characters, at least in my opinion. Overall the only half way interesting thing in the show was the

Spoiler

Fleischer style Lois Lane, implying a connection to the Fleischer Superman

Besides that I was mostly just bored and mildly annoyed by the show. I'd probably stick it near bottom of the Batman animated show pile, I honestly think that I even liked Beware the Batman better then this show.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Just finished episodw 6. Fantastic episode! Really cool! Love me some supernatural Batman stuff!

It’s a very different take on Harley’s origins in episode 5. Admittedly not a fun of the costume.

 

[theenglish]

And they're not ready to break out the Superman card yet

I hear they're loading a fleet of trucks to drive up to Robert Downey's house.

 

[publiusr]

As much as I love B:TAS, this Harley is much more capable. Kudos

 

[the G-man]

stuff like rich girl Catwoman

I actually appreciated the return to the idea of Catwoman as a sexy immoral jewel thief (which is what she was waaaay into the 70s [silver age attempt at reformation, notwithstanding]). The anti-hero thing we've gotten since at least Miller was never my cup of tea and I can't stand the "Catwoman is a member of the bat-family" stuff of the past ten to twenty years.

 

[Kor]

I'm a few more episodes in, still enjoying it. The visuals fall a little flat for me, though; not quite as evocative as B:TAS.

Kor

 

[kirk55555]

I actually appreciated the return to the idea of Catwoman as a sexy immoral jewel thief (which is what she was waaaay into the 70s [silver age attempt at reformation, notwithstanding]). The anti-hero thing we've gotten since at least Miller was never my cup of tea and I can't stand the "Catwoman is a member of the bat-family" stuff of the past ten to twenty years.

Bob Kane, who created her, intended for her to be a "friendly" foe and a romantic interest for Batman, someone who committed crimes but unlike his other villains wasn't a killer or particularly evil, and this was back in 1940 so its been part of her character the whole time. Heck, the Adam West Batman's versions of Catwoman were probably more vicious/evil then the characters creators ever really intended her to be.

So you can have your preference of course, but Catwoman at her core was not supposed to just be a jewel thief or supervillain, the connection to Batman and possibility of him reforming her (or at least making her an outright ally) was baked into the character from her origin, its not an 80s retcon and Miller was nowhere near the first writer to write catwoman as an anti-hero or outright Batman ally. Plus, the original Huntress was introduced in 1977 as the daughter of the Earth 2 Batman and Catwoman, so even in the 70s people knew that Batman and Catwoman had been romantically connected since the Golden Age of comics.

 

[the G-man]

Bob Kane, who created her

Welp, your argument fails right there.

But seriously:

I didn't see anything in the episode that made her any better or worse of a person than any of the Catwoman comics I've read from the 40s until the 70s. She was a thief, but not a killer, and motivated by selfish interests (greed, notoriety, etc.). She had the hots for Batman who obviously felt the same way on a certain level but wasn't letting that get in the way of his mission. This was, other than a few storylines that were eventually abandoned, was the character's status quo until Crisis. (And, while I acknowledge an Earth-2 permanent reformation, that was essentially all flashback/retcon to explain Helena's parentage...and occurred on an alternate earth, rather than the main continuity).