Basic Education

[FreddyE]

I always wondered what basic education or pre-starfleet academy education is like. There are some instances where people don´t seem to know even the most basic things about earth history for example.

I guess since there is much more stuff to know available, there must be a specialisation very early on. Let´s say in 5 th grade or something.

 

[Tiberius]

Can you give examples? Anyway, how much do you know about Earth history 300 years ago?

 

[Finn]

Calculus in grammar school

 

[T'Girl]

On DS9, Jake Sisko (except for a brief time in Keiko O'Brien's classroom) appears to be home schooled. The Enterprise Dee had some kind of onboard school for the dependant children of the ship.

Both Kirk and Troi have a fair amount of knowledge and interest of the American old west.

It seems to me that the various species of the federation would know of their own people and home planet's history, but (unless Human) know little of Earth.

Having detailed knowledge of every federation member's history would be unlikely.

 

[MacLeod]

Can you cite some examples please.

But in gerenal

1.>How much do you know about the history of your own country?
2.>How much do you know about the history of the other almost 200 countries on Earth?

My guess is most people now a few key dates and have some knowledge in broad strokes of their own, esp as some countries have millenia to cover whilst some only a few centuries.

As for the 2nd, I'm guessing it would be somewhat limited.

 

[Timo]

One thing the 24th century mankind might have given up on is the very concept of "general education" that would be required of all people, within the same rough age brackets. To wit, we see Jake Sisko struggling with algebra while seemingly quite a bit older than the kid from "When the Bough Breaks" who had trouble with calculus, a "higher level" concept. Today, we would wish for our children to stay apace with the Joneses in everything, from maths to geography to classical arts. In the 24th century, children may be given the freedom to completely skip entire disciplines that, given the spatial and temporal span of the UFP, would amount to the combined knowledge of Earth today if forced down their throats.

And, given the extended lifespans, it may be considered okay for a "kid" to learn algebra in his fifties; it won't be a pure hobby project for him or her, but rather something to assist him or her in the remaining/upcoming working career.

...OTOH, perhaps it has been discovered that calculus is best learned at the age of five to six, as the brain is the most adapted to receiving this conceptual structure at that age?

Alternately, the education philosophies of the 24th century mankind may be more or less the same as today, and Jake Sisko is just a retard (or that Harry Bernard from the TNG ep was a child prodigy). Admittedly, it is a bit dangerous to speculate from a single example.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marlonius]

On TOS, they always correctly use the word "sneaked", but also often say "myself" when they mean "me".

 

[JarodRussell]

The notion is that they have perfected pedagogical and educational concepts, and that the average human intelligence in 300 years will be greater than today. And since people are not concerned with the "acquisition of things", they are more concerned with the acquisition of knowledge, self-improvement.

And then there's the thing that Star Trek has a strong focus on Starfleet members. Starfleet officers are the cream of the crop. LaForge and Scotty have the understanding of physics on a Hawkings level. LaForge at one point says that helearned warp drive dynamics or something in High School.

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, many of Kirk's TOS crew were classic "British tar" style ill-disciplined ignoramuses, at least in the first season. And his officers weren't really renaissance men or women, either - Kirk himself only seemed to know about the 19th century United States and was a fish out of the water in the 1930s version of the culture. It seems more likely that these people just had good command of their own specific line of work...

Where would we have seen evidence of "greater intelligence"? Our heroes have skills we lack, such as the ability to read information coded into odd forms (seemingly random strings of numbers, stardates, Okudagrams). But so did our ancestors; we have lost those skills as the world has changed, while intelligence hasn't changed in a way we could reasonably measure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drago-Kazov]

Is education mandatory till when?

Do they allow homeschooling?

 

[Finn]

^I'd imagine not getting an education would be incomprehensible in in the 24th Century especially on Earth according to TNG's "evolved" attitudes. So the question of whether it's mandatory or not is pointless.

They just take education in accordance to what they want to do when they grow up.

 

[Timo]

We haven't heard of anything being mandatory in the UFP, really.

And in essence, Jake Sisko was home-schooled... At least until Keiko O'Brien began giving her own kind of education, which probably mostly counts as "home schooling for orphans" and doesn't appear to derive from any sort of official credentials or teaching standards, UFP, Bajoran or otherwise.

They just take education in accordance to what they want to do when they grow up.

Which would be an excellent argument for not taking any education until one grows up and knows what to do.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[NebulaClassGuy]

And then we have examples like Timothy from "Hero Worship", who didn't even understand the concept of erecting more than one wall of a model building, before attempting to lay the ceiling/roof atop them (the walls). The teachers on the S.S. Vico sure did a great job with him.

 

[Garrovick]

I would imagine that parents in 23rd-24th Earth society have quite a bit of latitude and freedom regarding how their kids are educated. I kind of find it hard to imagine that they have a system in place anything like the current type of school system we have now. Sure, there have been a few examples of schooling shown on ST over the years but they've varied wildly and I don't think it would be necessarily representative of humanity as a whole.

A lot of the reason why our current school system is the way it is is due to the perceived need for all kids to have the ability to compete for a finite number of jobs once they've graduated. There's also the factor of competition between various nations to stay on the "cutting edge" of science, engineering, etc. But those reasons really don't seem to exist on TNG-era Earth.

I imagine that most kids (especially those of non-Starfleet parents) have unstructured environments when it comes to education in the pre-teen years. Since material needs no longer exist on Earth (according to Picard anyway), there isn't nearly the same amount of educational pressure on young kids as there is today. On 24th century Earth, there is much more freedom to pursue education according to one's own interests and on one's own schedule without the constant and overriding economic pressure that exists today.

 

[The Castellan]

On DS9, Jake Sisko (except for a brief time in Keiko O'Brien's classroom) appears to be home schooled. The Enterprise Dee had some kind of onboard school for the dependant children of the ship.

Both Kirk and Troi have a fair amount of knowledge and interest of the American old west.

It seems to me that the various species of the federation would know of their own people and home planet's history, but (unless Human) know little of Earth.

Having detailed knowledge of every federation member's history would be unlikely.

Also, I am sure that quite a few history records, especially between the late 20th and early 21st centuries is shady, due to that a lot might have been destroyed in the wars that happened.

Also, since money is not an issue in the Federation, people can pursue education of choice, rather than by economic/social pressures or expectations....meaning one does not have to give up on doing certain things, because "it won't pay the bills" or impress the in-laws.

And things might be different, because I am sure new sciences might be included, or even replace some of today's. Plus I doubt you'd see resources pulled from educational areas and out into military or political areas.

Also keep in mind, there is a difference between being educated and intelligent.

 

[Timo]

Also, I am sure that quite a few history records, especially between the late 20th and early 21st centuries is shady, due to that a lot might have been destroyed in the wars that happened.

This is possible, but somewhat unlikely, as various detailed records of things preceding those wars survived the wars just fine!

I think people are reading a bit too much into Spock's comment in "Space Seed" about records from "that time" being fragmentary. Spock is worrying about his inability to pinpoint a specific spacecraft from the shipping registry of the time - and it appears that there was a lot of shipping between planets back then, as Khan's spacecraft is sort of dismissed as an outdated type among many, rather than being celebrated as a unique achievement in the annals of spaceflight. Essentially, then, Spock is speculating that his inability to spot SS Botany Bay might be explained by one line out of thousands in "Lloyd's registry" being corrupted, even though he fully well understands that another, more probable explanation is that SS Botany Bay is a false name. It doesn't follow that the world would have forgotten the name of the Vice President of the US in 1993, or whether Pakistan that year was being invaded by supermen or not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Finn]

They just take education in accordance to what they want to do when they grow up.

Which would be an excellent argument for not taking any education until one grows up and knows what to do.

Timo Saloniemi[/QUOTE]

Some parents are going that approach nowadays, based on what their kids like and can do at a young age.

As for mandatory, I perhaps should reword it. They might just take a different approach to ensuring the children on every Federation world has an education. Whatever we would say is pure speculation since we know very little about life in the Federation.

 

[T'Girl]

I would imagine that parents in 23rd-24th Earth society have quite a bit of latitude and freedom regarding how their kids are educated.

According to the last movie, Vulcans educate their children in information pits.

Sure, there have been a few examples of schooling shown on ST over the years but they've varied wildly ...

Not really, there is the traditional class room setting aboard the Enterprise Dee, there is Keiko's "our culture is superior to yours" school on DS9, and as mentioned Jake Sisko was home schooled. The school for young adults that is Starfleet Academy appears very modern day college-like.

Vulcans (information pits) have more of a individual one on one instruction, but there is still a environment where a child is being taught the things his parents and society wish him to learn

I imagine that most kids (especially those of non-Starfleet parents) have unstructured environments when it comes to education in the pre-teen years.

The younger years would seem to be the best time to begin a childs education, fresh open minds, it's actually difficult to imagine a system that waited until post-adolescence to start the education process. certainly not a Human one. Perhaps a species that measured their life span in the thousands of years could do such.

They just take education in accordance to what they want to do when they grow up.

So lots of princesses, rodeo clowns, rap music artists and fighter pilots.

 

[Garrovick]

According to the last movie, Vulcans educate their children in information pits.

Yep, they sure do. But I was talking about Earth education, not Vulcan education.

Not really, there is the traditional class room setting aboard the Enterprise Dee, there is Keiko's "our culture is superior to yours" school on DS9, and as mentioned Jake Sisko was home schooled. The school for young adults that is Starfleet Academy appears very modern day college-like.

The Enterprise-D, Keiko's school on DS9, and Jake Sisko are all either part of Starfleet or very closely associated with Starfleet. But there's a lot more to Earth than Starfleet. Yes, Starfleet Academy is very college-like, but relatively few people attend class there. I do not think its necessarily correct to assume that Starfleet-related methods of education are representative of overall Earth society.

The younger years would seem to be the best time to begin a childs education, fresh open minds, it's actually difficult to imagine a system that waited until post-adolescence to start the education process. certainly not a Human one. Perhaps a species that measured their life span in the thousands of years could do such.

An unstructured education doesn't neccesarily mean no education. I never said there were no schools at all on Earth, just that they are very different than what we have now. I still say that the radically different economic and social system that appears to exist on 24th century Earth compared to what we have today opens up a greater freedom for kids to be educated according to their interests and talents as opposed to what is deemed neccesary to survive as an adult. Remember, on Earth material needs no longer exist (so saith Picard anyway).

 

[Deks]

Ds9 made a lot of cutbacks in an attempt to have things appear 'realistic' (which was a dumb idea and an idiotic approach since we already broke numerous things by then of what constitutes as 'realistic') - perhaps the writers wanted to conform to stereotypes more.

When you look at the real world, Khan Academy for one thing (free online education) would allow a very young child to learn what some people perceive as 'advanced concepts'.

Calculus at the age of 8 (or earlier) doesn't sound unrealistic.

The only thing you are doing when you say 'a child cannot learn this or that because it is too young' is basically imposing artificial limits on the kid - unless of course we are talking about an age where they barely began to speak, or comprehend (I'm mainly talking about ages from 5 onward).

I'm spending 30 mins per day with my nephew (who is 6 years old) on Khan Academy (working on just Math for now) and in just a few days, we covered several times larger amounts of material than he did in a full semester in school with full comprehension on his part (he's in the first grade of course and since he's not a native English speaker, I have to sit with him and translate the instructional videos - a shame really - at his age, I already understood and spoke English language to a decent degree - but his lack of understanding the language stems from watching TV shows in native language instead of English with subs like I did).

Anyway... Gene Roddenberry had it right when he initially proposed the concept of humans being educated as 'generalists' and then specializing in certain fields later on.
Why?
Because, if you limit someones exposure to information, you basically limit their perception and they are open to manipulation.
And by 'general education' I'm referring to 'relevant education'.
This idea easily explains on why SF officers (or majority of Humans) were portrayed to be quite knowledgeable and capable in numerous aspects from a general point of view, but still specializing in certain areas.
Of course... as time went on, we saw this degrading more and more into what was happening in real life majority of the time.