Bashir vs Admiral Ross

[Tebok]

At the end of the episode Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges , Doctor Bashir confronts Admiral Ross about his involvement with section 31 and the operation that led to a Romulan Senator being arrested.
Admiral Ross believed that the operation was necessary to ensure continued Romulan Support in the War, while Doctor Bashir believed it went against Federation Ideals.

For those of you familiar with the episode, whose side are you on?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Bashir's. For two reasons:

- Section 31 is an inherently illegitimate organization, and has no right to exist

- Even so, why would they trust the Romulans? Koval was probably working behind their back the whole time.

 

[Silvercrest]

I think if the Federation's back was unequivocally against the wall, there'd be a case. Anything short of that is not justified. It runs the risk of permanently poisoning Romulan relations down the road if the details ever came out — particularly the number of times they pulled that crap to keep the Romulans involved.

The problem is that the fortunes of the Federation were not presented very consistently throughout the war. No, that's not it; they were presented TOO consistently. No matter what they achieved or what kind of strategic victory they scored, it was always "WE ARE LOSING THIS WAR!" (Makes me wonder if Palpatine was running things.) So it's a little hard to gauge at what point the Federation's backs really were against the wall and when it would be justified.

Here's a side question. Dragging the Romulans into the war in "In the Pale Moonlight" was quite a reversal. Do you think the Jack Pack and their analytical abilities could tell that someone had pulled a fast one? Even if they couldn't know the details.

 

[KelisThePoet]

I'm on Bashir's side because Ross' plot is too over-complicated to make sense, ethics aside.

The execution of the plot depends on too many coincidences, too many times when Bashir and others have to behave exactly as predicted when they might behave some other way.

And the outcome of the plot? A powerful Romulan ally gets a promotion he was supposed to get anyway, while another Romulan ally is eliminated because her patriotism might hypothetically pose a threat to the Federation at some future date. How is any of this nonsense a measurable, practical win (or averted loss) for the Federation. It's supposed to look like Ross and Section 31 are playing a long, subtle game, but it's too far fetched. The only way it makes sense to me is if the powerful Romulan dude (can't remember his name) is pulling the Federation's strings, manipulating or leveraging their secret alliance. He uses the Federation to eliminate one of his political rivals. He's the only one who wins anything real.

 

[Kor]

Section 38??

Kor

 

[ItIsGreen]

Section 38??

Kor

They're so secret even Section 31 don't know about them.

 

[USS KG5]

The problem is that the fortunes of the Federation were not presented very consistently throughout the war. No, that's not it; they were presented TOO consistently. No matter what they achieved or what kind of strategic victory they scored, it was always "WE ARE LOSING THIS WAR!"

You know I'm not so sure about that. They certainly never seem to talk about them pro-actively winning it, but it seems to be going OK at every point except the first three months, where they are losing a lot of ships and falling back, and just before the Romulans enter the war, where Dominion production capacity is starting to tell. They seem more constantly worn down by the bloody grind of it, the pain of losing friends all the time.

After the Romulans enter the war, it is really only after the Breen join the war and destroy 311 ships in a single battle (which ironically, is not treated as a crippling loss, they must have a LOT of ships at this point) they seem worried again.

They seem to be mostly at a bloody stalemate.

 

[matthunter]

The early stages of the war (when Dominion polaron beams still went straight through Fed shields like they did against the Odyssey) were when the Federation suffered it's worst losses, but even thereafter losing a couple of Federation worlds to the Dominion (they conquered Betazed and Bolarus) must have stretched the fleet to the limits trying to defend their territory, let alone push back.

And the Federation wasn't mentally prepared for losses on that scale - the last couple of wars they fought (before the skirmishes with the Klingons when Gowron went gung-ho) - against the Tzenkethi and the Cardassians - were fought pretty much concurrently and never threatened the core of the Federation, or even taxed the fleet (at least losses in what were considered full-scale conflicts were low enough that the lost of 39 ships in one battle at Wolf 359 was considered shocking). They'd gotten comfortable with "wars" that were more like the recent Iraq conflict (in terms of the original pushback of Hussein's troops) than Vietnam or World War 2.

 

[DonIago]

I basically agree with this. I think prior to retaking DS9 the Federation was losing badly, and would have suffered a critical loss if the Dominion forces had made it through the wormhole.

Afterward, even at its best, the Feds seemed to be fighting a war of attrition that didn't favor them and was unprecedented in their history, or at least their modern history. It seems clear that only the Romulans joining the allied forces was what allowed for a victory.

From a human standpoint, the closest analog might be the Romulan War, but the galactic map was very different at that point.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

It's a difficult one. On the principles that I live my life by, I would side with Bashir if I was looking at it as a neutral.

If in that situation and the survival of myself and my children were at stake, then I'd likely do whatever it took to survive. That is where the meaning of the Latin phrase in question comes from.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In general, those kinds of tactics are only permissible as an absolute last resort, if not doing them would result in the death or enslavement of billions of people.

In this case, however, I got the distinct impression that they did not do what they did to win the war, they did what they did so after the war they'd retain political dominance over the Romulans. The only bearing it had on the current war was some speculation that there might be some scenario where she'd vote against the Federation, but by that point it was so obvious that if the Federation fell Romulus would be next it seems pretty unlikely. So I am on Bashir's side. Their motives were post-war.

 

[DonIago]

Doesn't Bashir explicitly say something along the lines of "This war's not even over and you're already planning for the next one?"

 

[KelisThePoet]

That's what Bashir says, but it makes no sense. How is the Federation in a better position to fight the Romulans after Ross and Sloan pull off "their" plot? The only person in a better position is the Romulan Koval, which is why I maintain that the episode makes sense only if the plot is really his.

 

[DonIago]

If Koval has every intention of essentially being a Federation mole within the Romulan government, how does the plan not make sense? They got him deeper into the goverment at the expense of Cretak, who would have done what was best for Romulus, not best for the Federation.

Hell, S31 might reason that even if Koval was only 2% more likely to side with Federation interests, that would still be an improvement.

 

[diankra]

That's what Bashir says, but it makes no sense. How is the Federation in a better position to fight the Romulans after Ross and Sloan pull off "their" plot? The only person in a better position is the Romulan Koval, which is why I maintain that the episode makes sense only if the plot is really his.

It makes perfect sense, or at least it's what happened with leaders and generals in reality.
While fighting the war, you plan for the problems of victory (no point planning for the aftermath of defeat; it won't be your problem). Though I do agree that unless S31 know more than we're told, the advantage gained is so marginal that it's not worth the effort, unless the main aim is to side line Bashir's anti-S31 agenda.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If Koval has every intention of essentially being a Federation mole within the Romulan government

And why should anyone believe that? Why is Koval worthy of trust?

I'd sooner believe that he was working behind Section 31's back the whole time, and would continue to do so. He is a Romulan, after all. Why take anything he says at face value?

He's definitely less trustworthy than Cretak, at any rate. I could believe that Cretak would be a genuine ally of the Federation. Not so with Koval - he is allies with no one but himself.

 

[DonIago]

I thought Ross laid out quite clearly why he felt Koval was who they preferred over Cretak, and we have to assume S31 had good reasons for making the decisions they made or the whole plot doesn't make any sense to begin with.

Put another way, we're not the ones you should be asking. Unfortunately, as a fictional character, we aren't in a position to ask Sloan.

And Ross explicitly said why Cretak cannot be trusted. She's not a Federation ally, she's a patriot who's siding with the Feds for the time-being.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

we have to assume S31 had good reasons

By definition, Section 31 never has good reasons for anything, because they are a criminal conspiracy and have no right to exist.

And Ross explicitly said why Cretak cannot be trusted. She's not a Federation ally

Neither is Koval. No reason to believe he is one, anyway.

 

[DonIago]

Okay, why would S31 approach Koval in the first place if they believed that?

I believe S31 has good reasons for what they do, if you accept their philosphy that the ends justify the means. I don't personally subscribe to their philosphy, but I understand it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Okay, why would S31 approach Koval in the first place if they believed that?

Koval could have been an ally of Section 31, but not of the Federation. He gets high enough in the hierarchy of the Romulan government, he could support them in their attempts to take control OF said Federation (and you better believe they have plans to do so).